Tea Party Sign Ideas

  • Remember, Patriots VOTE!
  • November, 2010: We Take our Country Back!
  • The Revolution Starts HERE
  • Get Your Hand Out of My Pocket & Leave Me Alone!
  • STOP the Borrowing
  • STOP the Spending
  • STOP the Taxing
  • Stop the $$$ Presses!
  • Stop Porking America!
  • I Can Spend My $$ Better Than You Can
  • It’s Time to Clean House — And Senate!
  • I Want My National Sovereignty Back!
  • What Have We Got to Lose? (Besides our Country?)
  • Free Markets. Free People.
  • This is Only the Beginning…
  • Government is Not Your Daddy

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  1. Tea Party gear can be found at http://www.shirts4freedom.com

  2. Here are a few more sign ideas:
    “I AM NOT YOUR ATM”
    “DON’T MAKE OUR KIDS FUND YOUR GREED”
    “OK JOKES OVER BRING BACK THE CONSTITUTION”
    “YOU CAN’T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT”
    “PUTTING LIPSTICK ON A STIMULAS PLAN”
    “WHAT WOULD THE FOUNDING FATHERS DO”
    “HONK IF YOU ARE PAYING MY MORTGAGE”

  3. You-Tube video make a protest Tew Bag:

    • Guys like this advising on government and the constitution? He may have reason to worry about the rightful assembly at a freedom loving Tea party.

      What’s his day job or do we have a trust fund baby here? Let me guess, money manager? You give him and the government money, and they figure out a way to manage it…. for good of course……What do you mean for whose good?

  4. Don’t Tread on Me

  5. OBAMA BUCKS: Inflate before using!

  6. I wish we had a pool going on how long it would take for the real agenda to surface, i.e., the Obama shoe to drop. Thanks, VaBob, we have a winner.

    My t-shirt for the event:
    I SUPPORT MY PRESIDENT

  7. Government OF the Unions, BY the Unions, and FOR the Unions

    • Annoy a Liberal……Help Yourself!

      ANNOY A liberal…..get a job

  8. Wigglesworth,

    “My t-shirt for the event:
    I SUPPORT MY PRESIDENT”

    Can I buy that shirt from you? I want to wear it to the inauguration of the next Republican President. Whoever she might be. A size large would be fine.

  9. “Can I buy that shirt from you?”

    I’d like one as well…and for the same reason!

  10. That’s the way it works, right? When *your* president is elected, support everything he does, no matter how offensive, retarded and asinine. When the other other side’s president gets elected, initiate the biggest whining fest of all time. That’s called being a good American. Especially when your side is “good” and the other side is “evil.”

  11. LOL…well put Wigglesworth. They even had a sign at the D.C. “Tea Party” that apparently depicited Obama as a shoe-shine boy…racist anyone?? What a bunch of whiny failures…

  12. Wigglesworth,

    “That’s the way it works, right? When *your* president is elected, support everything he does, no matter how offensive, retarded and asinine. When the other other side’s president gets elected, initiate the biggest whining fest of all time. That’s called being a good American. Especially when your side is “good” and the other side is “evil.””

    When Liberals protested everything President Bush did, it was Constitutionally divined dissent. When Conservatives and Libertarians protest President Obama’s excessive spending it is whining and according Mister Guy, racist.

    Questions to you. Do you not see even a micron of hypocrisy in your own statement? Are you so bitter about George Bush denying you taxpayer provided health care that you don’t care if Barak Obama bankrupts the country, as long as the rest of us pay your medical bills?

  13. Alan, thanks, those are good questions. I didn’t say the left never protested or disagreed with Bush. But I do think they didn’t throw the “biggest whining fest of all time,” either. I think that honor belongs to the right during Obama’s first three months. At least so far.

    Perhaps I exaggerate a tad. If so, it’s only from frustration.

    Of course Bush took some heat. He “won” the election with -.5% of the popular vote. It seems ridiculous that Obama with 7.3% should take more heat than him. If anything Obama has way more of a mandate than Bush ever did.

    What has happened is that the right feels like it is payback time for dissent, like your posting illustrates, even though a comparison of Bush to Obama is apples to oranges.

    Do I see a micron of hypocrisy? No, because I’ve always acknowledged that this is a two-way street. I just don’t think the application has been equal.

  14. By the way, health care for all Americans would not bankrupt the country. (I’d like to see your supporting evidence to back up that statement.) I think it could be done for less than 2% of the GDP.

  15. Every american has access to universal “health care”…..eat the correct foods and use your legs to walk and or exercise. This would reduce the symtom solving drug and medical industry to a manageable level.

    univerasl health care is currently avaiable without government assistance. Symtom relief from those who do not access this “health care” is the real issue.

  16. I didn’t say the left never protested or disagreed with Bush. But I do think they didn’t throw the “biggest whining fest of all time,” either.

    Of course you don’t — you agree with them, so you refuse to acknowledge their extremes. But methinks you’re either wearing blinders, or intentionally downplaying the behavior of the Left over the past 8 years. From dozens of snarky and disrespectful anti-bush bumperstickers, through the tinfoil hat-fest that is DU and the Daily Kos, to the Dixie Chicks and Dan Rathers’ “Fake but Accurate”, the left was completely obsessed with their hatred of Bush. It even spawned the term “Bush Derangement Syndrome”. If it’s not, as you put it, “biggest whining fest of all time,” it’s close enough for a photo finish.

    What it comes down to is this: The actions and policies of the Federal Government, and particularly the Obama administration, with regards to taxation and spending of those tax revenues, are at direct odds with our beliefs on the proper place of government, taxation, and spending. We have, and are exercizing, our right to express our disagreement and displeasure with those policies and actions.

  17. Go ahead and exercise your right to express disagreement and displeasure with the president. Hopefully won’t be called a “traitor” and accused of “treason” like what happened to the left during the last eight years.

    You provide interesting examples. Curious, can you remember talk of “revolution” from the left under Bush?

    Yeah, I’m a human. I have some bias. My memory is that the right puts down from the top and complains from the bottom in a more excessive way than the left. You are, with your own bias, of course free to believe the exact opposite.

  18. Hopefully won’t be called a “traitor” and accused of “treason” like what happened to the left during the last eight years.

    Already have.

    Curious, can you remember talk of “revolution” from the left under Bush?

    Revolution, assassination, impeachment… you bet — all the time. I recall Leftists crowing at the death of Tony Snow, just because he was Bush’s press secretary. If you say you never heard the same, I say you’re either lying or were blissfully oblivious. I’ll let you decide which is the more charitable view.

    I have some bias.

    That’s like saying the Titanic took on some water.

    My memory is that the right puts down from the top and complains from the bottom in a more excessive way than the left.

    And no argument or evidence to the contrary is going to convince you.

  19. Wigglesworth,

    Please allow me to argue details with you. I hate generalities.

    “I didn’t say the left never protested or disagreed with Bush. But I do think they didn’t throw the “I didn’t say the left never protested or disagreed with Bush. But I do think they didn’t throw the “biggest whining fest of all time,” either. I think that honor belongs to the right during Obama’s first three months.,” either. I think that honor belongs to the right during Obama’s first three months.”

    The left attacked everything Bush did from day one. He had a brief reprieve after 911. You will remember that President Bush got a late start because of the disputed Florida results.

    The left accused Bush of stifling dissent during their war protests. They said dissent was their patriotic right. Using their standard, that would make anyone attending tea parties, patriotic. I’m quite proud to be a patriot and not a whiner.

    “biggest whining fest of all time” According to the media, hardly anyone showed up.

    “Of course Bush took some heat. He “won” the election with -.5% of the popular vote. It seems ridiculous that Obama with 7.3% should take more heat than him. If anything Obama has way more of a mandate than Bush ever did.”

    You are more right than you know. Bush did not have a mandate. He was politically hamstrung by this. He had a majority in the House and a slim majority in the Senate. He also had a lot of Rinos, so he did not have the absolute power Obama enjoys. Following me?? Yet Democrats say that Republicans were 100% to blame for the economy and everything else. They said they had ZERO power to block Bush on anything. Trust me, it is the only time a Democrat was modest.

    Now reality. President Obama has the power and mandate Bush did not have. Republicans cannot stop the Obama agenda. Democrats pretty much own it. If as you believe Obama is right, YOU and your buddies in Congress can take full credit. If you are wrong, it will be small comfort with the country in the crapper, for our side.

    “health care for all Americans would not bankrupt the country. (I’d like to see your supporting evidence to back up that statement.) I think it could be done for less than 2% of the GDP”

    I apologize for not backing that up directly. I will have to ask for more time. I would ask you though, to give me an example of a country that is doing what you ask. Mister Guy never seems to be able to do that on anything. The countries that I know who do it like Great Britain and Canada either have horrendous quality, high cost, or both.

  20. Wigglesworth,

    As part of trying to back up my statement that Universal Healthcare will bankrupt the country, I offer the following arguments. First off, anything given away free will be over used and abused. When you do not pay the costs you have no incentive to minimize them.

    I will give 2 examples of gov. provided healthcare where costs have run amuck. First is Medicare. That does promise to bankrupt the country before Social Security. Second is the Massachussets Healthcare program. The long term costs of this program are a big problem.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,390961,00.html

    I know, I know, just tax the evil rich more and the retarded smokers, they’re stupid they will pay up because of their shame.

  21. Wigglesworth,

    Here are a few numbers reagrding Healthcare;

    “In 2006, the United States devoted 15.3% of its GDP to health-care spending…” (http://thepumphandle.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/lack-of-universal-healthcare-in-the-us-morally-and-fiscally-bankrupt/)

    “In 2008, total national health expenditures were expected to rise 6.9 percent — two times the rate of inflation.1 Total spending was $2.4 TRILLION in 2007, or $7900 per person1. Total health care spending represented 17 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).” (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)

    “As a percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), health care spending is expected to reach 17.7 percent in 2012…” (http://www.moralgroup.com/NewsItems/Health/p4.htm)

    We are already way above the 2% you suspected.

  22. DJ,

    Thanks for the help on figures. Every government program that shifts costs away from users, has always cost a lot more than it was originally projected. Liberals have never recognized that there is a cost to society of taxing producers more than non producers. This basic fact is an unlearnable principle to a liberal.

    Another fundamental rule that they cannot grasp is that in a capitalist nation, the rich are rich because they produced something that society wanted. Even a lawyer like ex-Senator (D) John Edwards is a capitalist who became rich taking a third of the profits from personal injury cases. Now a special tax on this kind of evil rich guy might lower medical costs and turn me in to a socialist.

  23. Wow, it would be nice if “DJ” actually *read* the links that he posts here beforehand. From some of his very own links:

    “The reality is that the US spends a larger proportion of its Gross Domestic Product (GDP) than any other developed nation.”

    “Countries whose technical level of medical care is at or above the quality of the US’s (although most people in the US don’t have access to the best care), indeed devote sizable proportions of their GDP to health care (greater than 10%), but still significantly less than the US. For most health indices they are also doing much better for their people than the US.”

    “private insurance companies, who are little more than disguised investment banks with the added incentive not to pay back their depositors (the premium payers).”

    “Experts agree that our health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud. These problems significantly increase the cost of medical care and health insurance for employers and workers and affect the security of families.”

    “Although nearly 46 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.”

    “Economists have found that rising health care costs correlate to drops in health insurance coverage.”

    “According to a recent report, the United States has $480 billion in excess spending each year in comparison to Western European nations that have universal health insurance coverage. The costs are mainly associated with excess administrative costs and poorer quality of care.”

    “The United States spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health care system than its peer Western European nations.”

    We pay a HUGE amount for health care in this country, and we don’t get anywhere near the best results for our money. What we get is money funneled away for useless administration costs & profit, which is complete & totally unnecessary IMO.

    Obama isn’t FOR true universal health care, since his plans during the campaign didn’t cover everyone. I’ll admit that I’m a tad baffled by his vague health care plans now that he’s in office, but what the Right-wing needs to realize is that the “threat” from a single-payer system isn’t going to come from the federal govt. (because the insurance lobby is waaaay too strong at that level)…rather, it will come from the states. A handful of states will eventually try out their own version of a single-payer system (NOT some system from abroad, but an American-based system), and those states will save so much money on health care that other states will join in the fray. Get ready for it…oh, and thanx so much “DJ” for helping out the cause for a single-payer system in the USA…lol…

  24. Alan Scott,

    My pleasure. Excellent analysis, I couldn’t agree more! Whether George Soros, Oprah Winfrey, Susan Sarandon or (insert liberal here) anyone who makes oodles of money, especially in America, is doing it within a Capitalist framework. Yet they try to tear down Capitalism every chance they get. Why do they seem more concerned about protecting what they have by limiting the chances others have to succeed?

    I do disagree with the “special tax” idea though, I would prefer a total overhaul of the tort system.

  25. DJ,

    I had another reply, but erased it when I realized that as usual all of us have strayed off topic. You and I can easily frame our thoughts back on track. I would love our 2 friends to give more of their ideas for tea party signs. Here are mine.

    *Taxes are paid by regular people.
    *There are no regular people in Obama’s Cabinet.
    *Even if you print it, there is no free money.
    *Universal health care is medical welfare.
    *Stop using my money to buy votes.
    *The road to ruin is paved with high taxes.
    *Saying nothing beautifully doesn’t fool us.
    *We are not as stupid as the fools who voted for you.
    *A Duck named Hope and Change, still quacks socialism.
    *Your stimulus check won’t buy me.
    *Returning a part of my taxes is not a gift from you.
    *Debasing my money is stealing from me.

  26. Sign idea, it really isn’t catchy, but sums it up succingtly:

    “I earned it, it’s MY money!”

  27. Boy Named Sous,

    The problem is there are so many people now who don’t pay federal taxes. You have two groups, one that pays taxes and one that lives off of the taxes of the first group. Raising taxes on someone richer than you always plays to the street crowd. Socialism is the heroin of the Democratic Party. It makes you feel so good in the short term.

    Those of us who aren’t stupid know that nothing Obama is doing is sustainable. But, you can’t tell that to his minions. I know, I have plenty of friends and relatives who have bought in to this clap trap.

    The proof that Obamanomics does not work is at the state level. The states of New York and California are shining examples. Their socialist governors have run out of rich people to tax. Between catering to the public service unions, going green, and giving their rent a mobs other people’s money, why would a businessman or a semi wealthy person stay in these states???

  28. Alan Scott,

    I am kinda partial to:

    *My Sweat, My Earnings
    *Redistribution is theft
    *Money from Nothing and Health care still won’t be free
    *I work, therefore I earn
    *Wealth comes from WORK

    Also, you forgot Michigan. The Michigan economy is a direct result of mandatory unions and liberal economic policies. Obamanomics isn’t new, California, New York, and Michigan were the test beds, now those ruinous policies will be implemented nationally.

  29. DJ,

    Yeah, and Obama’s picked MI governor Granholm as one of his financial advisors. I have friends and family in Michigan, here’s a dare: Mention her name to any one of them, see what reaction you get. Just don’t froget to duck.

  30. Boy Named Sous,

    I know exactly what you mean! I was born and raised n SW Michigan, my family is still there, mentioning “her” name brings scowls at best.

    I was back home prior to the election, and I was pleasantly surprised by the number of McCain-Palin signs in that area, not nearly enough support to overcome Detroit and Lansing, but a pleasant sight nonetheless.

  31. It’s funny how when you engage them in honest debate, Mr. Guy and Wigglesworth retreat. I used to go on some liberal boards, which are now defunct, and I never shied away from discussions or failed to acknowledge when I was wrong on a point.

    If only I could find them on one of their native sites.
    Oh well.

    I want to leave a story about the real casualties of Obama’s war on US capitalism.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/26/AR2009042602838.html

  32. Scowls? YOur family shows a lot more restraint than mine. Their description of her makes mine of Kulongoski sound like fawning praise in comparison.

  33. Wow. You don’t visit the site for a week and you get accused of “retreat.” Is that an example of the kind of facts you like?

    I’ll try to schedule some free time to analyze and respond as soon as I can.

  34. I’ll say one thing right now. You posted a stat that 17% of the GDP in 2008 is expected for health care. That is under the *current* broken system that leaves about one-sixth of Americans without access. So that fails to address the point I raised that universal health care could be possible for 2% of the GDP. And it’s not my idea. It’s from the book “The Two Percent Solution” by Matthew Miller.

  35. Alan Scott, I wasn’t calling the TEA Party the biggest whining fest of all time. I was referring to the behavior of the right during the last six months or so.

    All I can say is wow. I’m glad I had my rabies shots before coming in here. :) I say something like: both presidents got criticism but I think the criticism of Obama is clearly more than what Bush received during the same period of time, and Obama even had much more support of the people.

    The above is, by the way, an opinion statement.

    What I get in response is: You’ve got blinders on! You’ll never acknowledge a fact. You don’t engage in honest debate. (Personal attacks.)

    I do see one post that attempts to document some of the left against Bush stuff and I appreciate that. I still think the current anti-Obama environment winds hands down.

    I wish there was a way to take the historical record and somehow quantify the “dissent factor” under each president’s first 100 days. Yes, I know that under Bush you were a treasonous traitor if you dissented, but let’s do try to be fair. ;)

    A Christian friend of mine called me a “Kool-Aid drinker” yesterday because I happen to support Obama. I think that about sums it all up. If you supported McCain/Palin you were right, righteous, and a true American. If you support Obama you are merely a Kool-Aid drinker. (This is the good vs. evil thing again, kids.)

    Kool-aid drinker? How classy.

    Why is it so cool to say, “We’re #1. I love America. Boot in your ass! By the way, approx. 50 percent of us are evil idiots.” I just don’t get the ideology.

  36. Wigglesworth,

    “So that fails to address the point I raised that universal health care could be possible for 2% of the GDP.”

    I am guessing this was directed at me. If so, please explain how a UHC plan, which would add people (one sixth according to your post), will reduce the overall coast to 2%.

    The added bureaucracy from the government is going to increase the plan all by itself. The only way to reduce cost is to get government out of the system. Remove government, and remove HMO’s, PPO’s and all the other crap, let people choose what they want (if any at all) for health care coverage, and suddenly competition will drive prices down and quality of service up.

  37. “You don’t visit the site for a week and you get accused of ‘retreat.’ Is that an example of the kind of facts you like?”

    No, it’s an example of the weak tactics that trolls like to use to make them feel like they are “winning”, period. I’ve seen it before from this particular troll many times…he’ll never learn though…

    “I just don’t get the ideology”

    …that’s because it doesn’t make any sense.

  38. My apologies, DJ. I find this blog format a little odd to be working under. I didn’t mean to add confusion or forget a reference.

    To answer your question, I’d really like to know about decision making under the current system. Because our system is not standardized, there are different benefits and levels of coverage for everyone. This has created a huge bureaucracy in the medical insurance industry. This bureaucracy doesn’t perform any medical function or deliver medical services. It simply performs “eligibility” services to determine who gets what treatment and when treatments will be paid for and at what level.

    I’d really like to know the cost to the medical insurance industry for providing this sort of function.

    It’s like saying, “Ok. We have the funding to provide medical services to all of you, OR we can provide services to five-sixths of you and use the remainder of the funds to keep track of who isn’t eligible.”

    The current system is broken. I would argue that a society that doesn’t provide health care to one-sixth of its population is morally bankrupt. It certainly is a moral dilemma in my view. On top of that, even for the remainder that do get coverage there are cost and eligibility issues.

    My spouse had to visit the doctor this week. As you might have guessed, we are currently part of the approx. 50 million Americans without health insurance, so we have to pay cash. As far as the lazy argument, anyone who tells me that can stick it in their ear. I’ve worked since the day I turned 16 and I’ve always worked. I haven’t even had a week off in the last ten years. (Because on top of not providing health insurance coverage, my employer doesn’t provide vacation benefits, either.)

    So the doctor tells my spouse that a chest x-ray is required. The cost of the doctor visit and x-ray is equal to 1/2 of this month’s rent, which we are already struggling to pay since we are behind on our other bills, too, like electricity.

    Hint: If I don’t post in the future, it might not be “retreat.” It might be an energy-related problem.

    I’m a decent, law abiding person, who has worked every day since I turned 16. I shouldn’t have to worry about shit like this in my life, like deciding between medical care for my spouse and paying my rent. NYD says that comparatively speaking Americans are not “poor.” What good is that when a preventable medical issue comes along and kills your ass so some other dude can “collect” Hummers in his own aircraft hanger on his private ranch? Oh yes, I support universal health care. It’s the least we can do for each other. It is *MORALLY* the right thing to do.

  39. Wigglesworth,

    I can understand why you support UHC, I just don’t agree with it. I too have worked since 16, and I know just exactly what you are going through. My wife and spent the first 4 years of our marriage living paycheck to paycheck, many times splitting the last package of Ramen noodles two days before payday. Paying the car payment late so we could catch up the electric bill and so on.

    Obviously I am not in your shoes at the moment, but I can’t help but question whether or not you fully grasp what UHC is all about. Please don’t take this to be condescending, or implying that I don’t think you are not an intelligent person; doctors chose to go to med school. Many chose to go because they want to make a difference, others go because they want to get paid. If our country goes the UHC route, many who wanted to become doctors won’t simply because there is no payoff at the end, Med school, residency, then on to a government subsidized job treating the ill, little to no chance for them to move up, little to no chance for them to specialize, the list goes on. Look into some the things that happen in countries that have UHC, England, for example, has told pregnant women that epidurals are no longer available because of cost. Canada sends “complicated pregnancies” to the US because they do not have enough room/doctors to take car of the mothers (Canada does pay for sending them over here) but the point is, the system in Canada is so clogged up they have to outsource patients. In Japan at least three people die each week-in the hallways- waiting for a bed to open up. In Cuba, they sent out for a doctor for Fidel Castro, the elites do not use the same system as the average citizen, here in the States, the President goes to the same hospital active duty military use. Yet the Canadian PM comes to the US for medical treatment. UHC is not a good plan, it doesn’t provide enough for what it costs. Our system has problems, but it is a hell of a lot better than what the rest of the world provides. Here is a pretty good article; http://kylehuwer.wordpress.com/2008/03/02/foaming-at-the-mouth-for-uhc/ the link at the bottom has some examples from the Canadian system, I recommend you check it out if you have time.

  40. Wigglesworth, first, I’m sorry to hear about your wife. I sincerely hope it’s nothing serious and that she’s OK.

    To respond to the rest of your post, you seem like an intelligent person. I have no doubt that you could have, by making different choices in your life, acquired jobs that provided benefits, advancement, etc. For whatever reason, you have chosen whatever path you have chosen.

    I have a brother who’s very intelligent (even tested out as a genius), who is college educated, but has never had a job that provided any benefits or any sort of advancement. He’s a very independent and artistic person, and doesn’t like working in offices. So he’s always taken jobs that didn’t require much of him. He’s in his fifties now and he, too, has no health insurance.

    I worry about him. But he made the choices in his life that brought him to this point. He could easily have gotten different kinds of jobs, and advanced in any number of different types of careers, and saved money, and had a competely different lifestyle. But he didn’t want that lifestyle, and he made the choices he made, and where he is today is a direct result of those choices (or, in some cases, refusal to make choices he could have made, which amounts to the same thing).

    I’m not criticizing the choices you’ve made, or the choices he’s made. Everybody’s entitled to choose their own path in life. But everybody is not entitled to demand that other people pay for their choices.

    It’s like saying, “Ok. We have the funding to provide medical services to all of you, OR we can provide services to five-sixths of you and use the remainder of the funds to keep track of who isn’t eligible.”

    What you’re missing is that the funding isn’t just inherently there, it’s there because people have paid for it. The people who have paid for it get what they pay for. People who have chosen other priorities in their lives over medical coverage are not discriminated against. They just haven’t paid into the system so they can’t expect to be paid by it.

    Medical care is expensive. Somebody has to pay. If not you, who? You say “society” should provide everybody with medical care. “Society” is simply other people. Why should other people pay for your coverage when you didn’t prioritize it highly enough in your own life to ensure that you could pay for it yourself? Food is even more necessary to survival than medical care, yet you don’t seem to feel society should provide everybody with food.

    Your argument that it isn’t fair that some rich guy has a hangar full of hummers when you can’t afford medical care is simply a restatement of the communist credo “From each according to his ability and to each according to his need.” I fundamentally disagree with that. I think everybody should take responsibility for all the choices they make in their own lives. Nobody is entitled to anything they didn’t produce or earn.

  41. “The added bureaucracy from the government is going to increase the plan all by itself”

    …except for the *fact* that a single-payer system will reduce the bloated health care administration costs that we already have in place right now. As shown already, the rest of the world pays very little on health care administration costs already.

    “If our country goes the UHC route, many who wanted to become doctors won’t simply because there is no payoff at the end”

    Nonsense, doctors around the world make a very decent living indeed under single-payer systems.

    “Our system has problems, but it is a hell of a lot better than what the rest of the world provides.”

    The “rest of the world” covers their entire population of citizens, and they receive better care (with better medical outcomes over the long-haul) than the USA. U.S. citizens pay a HUGE amount of money for coverage that gets smaller & smaller over time (both it terms of benefits & in terms of how many people are covered).

  42. Hahaha, Mr. Guy, you are very funny. Tell the Canadians who are tired of waiting in line for health care and come doww here to get it that their system is better than ours.
    And I’m constantly amazed at the massive amount of medical innovation from around the the world that is improving American health care. Constantly amazed that there isn’t much, that is. For all those countries who have all this great coverage there is very little to show in innovative care. Most of that comes from the US.
    Next time you get sick, please go get treated in Cuba (wait, you are posting from there, right?).
    I’m in Moscow today. If I became injured or seriously ill, I would stay away from a Russian hospital and go to the expat hospital, and if I could not get into that one, I would go to the airport and get on the next plane out. People die here from minor shit, but hey, it’s universal, so it must be good, right?
    American pay a huge amount of money because it costs a huge amount of money to have great care. If you want mediocre care, pay a mediorce amount of money, then STFU when the care sucks.
    The system is not perfect, but like democracy, it is better than the alternatives.

  43. This will be quick and generic. I’m sorry I don’t have more time to give the replies the response they deserve. I do appreciate the responses, though.

    Choices? I can understand that point even while I don’t necessarily agree with it. I have made choices. I’m a decent, hard-working, honest, law-abiding and caring person. I don’t lie, don’t cheat on my taxes, don’t fib on my resume and don’t steal. I’ve never been on welfare.

    I know a guy who lied on his resume. He’s now a very high level executive at MGM. I’m pretty sure that *he* has health insurance for himself AND his entire family.

    America values a hard day’s work. It’s part of our heritage. Yet white collar criminals can lie, cheat and steal and get insanely rich trading little pieces of paper on Wall Street. Hard days work? Someone evil as hell who doesn’t have half the morals as me can blow $80 million on their yacht that has more square footage of living space than every house I’ve ever lived in my entire life – *combined*. Meanwhile I have no insurance and I could be watching my wife die.

    I notice that no one attempted to refute “the system is broken.” I also notice that no one attempted to refute the comments I made about the “morality” of leaving one-sixth of the population without health insurance, whether they deserve it or not, whether it is the result of their own choices or not.

    Choices? Put two rats in two different mazes. One has a path to the cheese and the other does not. Each will make choices as they navigate, but one has a shot at the cheese, the other does not. Hell, one rat probably had the cheese placed in his starting location right from birth.

    Society isn’t “other people.” It is “all of us,” including me. Your definition excludes one person. Be that as it may, society makes choices, too, and just like a person, it has to live by them. By not providing health care for all (the ounce of prevention) this forces the uninsured into our nation’s emergency rooms in staggering numbers (the pound of cure). We refuse to spend the ounces now so we can spend the pounds later. Meanwhile, hospitals are forced to close their emergency rooms because they are not profitable enough, thereby limiting availability to all, even the five-sixths. That’s just one example of the irrationalities inherent in the system.

    If our health care system is broken and we don’t want “communism” like NYD was thoughtful enough to point out, then what? No human system will be perfect. But I think elements of both could be combined in such a way to make a system that would, in the end, be a little more fair. We say, “Such a system would have flaws so don’t do it.” That doesn’t make much sense when the current system is already broken and still leaves one-sixth of us uninsured. A 45-year-old man without insurance recently died when he felt chest pains but wouldn’t go to the hospital because he was worried about the cost. I’m now putting rent and my spouse’s health in the balance sheet. I think that is pretty shitty when for less than 2 cents on every dollar we could provide health care for all of us. Who knows? The person that we currently allow to die could be the dude who comes up with the cure to cancer or a new 100% green and renewable energy source. My point is that we’re all in this together and that everything is connected. We really need to live that way. In the long run, morality pays for itself.

    /manifesto out :)

  44. First, I apologize to the proprietor here. We’ve really left the reservation of “Tea Party Sign Ideas.” Oops.

    I just had one more thought. How is it good for the economy for one-sixth of the country to not have health insurance? Say you are a landlord and your renters have to visit the doctor and, oh let’s just say, have to get a chest x-ray? Oops, they can’t afford to pay you rent now. Or you are an American company that profits from continued consumption of your products. Yet your customers have to put all of their discretionary income into health care? It seems to me that there is a high probability they’ll be buying less of your stuff, eh?

    I’d say this is another example of an irrationality inherent in the system.

  45. Wiggles, the choices to which I was referring are not simply to be moral and honest or not. It seems you think the only way to get a decent job with benefits is to lie or cheat or steal. That isn’t so. The majority of Americans are hard-working, law-abiding, honest people, who do work and do have medical benefits. Some people who are rich are dishonest. Some people who are middle class are dishonest. Some people who are poor are dishonest. There is no direct connection between being an honest, law-abiding, hard-working, moral person and having medical coverage. That is simply a non-sequitur.

    There are other choices you have made in your life, WRT where you live, how much of your life (both in terms of your time and your intellectual/psychological energy) you’re willing to invest in something that has nothing to do with you persoanlly, and may not even coincide with your interests. Employment is prostitution. Unless you own your own company, you are selling yourself (your time, your intellect, your talents, your skills, or your manual labor) in return for money. That’s what we all have to do, one way or another, to survive. You may feel that you’re taking the moral high ground by not prostituting yourself for the almighty dollar. There are certain personal compromises you’re not willing to make, but they have nothing to do with morality. However, there are tradeoffs involved in every choice, and it’s your responsibiility to weigh the tradeoffs when you make the choices that define your life.

    You did not choose to acquire the skills necessary to work for a large corporation, or perhaps you have those skills but chose not to apply for that kind of job. Perhaps you live someplace where there are no large employers, and you chose to stay there and maintain the lifestyle with which you’re comfortable rather than move where the high-paying jobs are. There are a number of choices you have made (or chosen not to make) throughout your life that have brought you to where you are today. You don’t seem to want to own those choices.

    You are obviously educated, and I would take a wild guess that you are a white male. You talk about a rat in a maze with no path to the cheese. If you are a white male, born in America, you are a member of one of the most priveleged classes of people the world has ever known. Throughout your life, you have had opportunities available to you that most people in the world cannot even dream of. Yet you complain about having no path to the cheese. Wiggles, there are many paths to the cheese in your particular maze. You have chosen other paths.

    Again, I’m not criticizing the path you have chosen. I’m criticizing the fact that you’re unwilling to take responsibility for your own part in creating the situation in which you find yourself.

  46. Wigglesworth,

    I am sorry you took offence at my ‘suggestion ‘that you would retreat from heated debate. I will argue with anyone, anytime. On another one of NYD’s boards, you failed to answer me on a posting.

    Enough being polite. All I asked for were some slogans for tea party signs. Your responses are hard to condense in to snappy phrases. How about: Free is in Freedom, or The Rich got their’s, Obama will get me mine, or Free healthcare is my birth right, or The Rich will finally know how I feel, or Steal from the Rich and give to ME.

    Actually you now have nothing to fear. During Bush’s time the Democrats could block much of his agenda. Right now President Obama is God. Republicans can’t stop his slightest wish. He will get you your free healthcare. I hope you like what you get.

    I don’t know why you bother attacking a bunch of tea partyers. Right now we are as dangerous to Lord Obama’s power as an Amish guy in a horse buggie.

  47. I wasn’t offended. I was merely wondering if your statement about my “retreat” was representative of the typical quality of your statements and/or deductions. :)

    Once again I continue to raise points that no one even attempts to rebut. Yes, I must be just that good!

  48. Wigglesworth,

    I didn’t respond to your “morality” concern because providing health care is not a moral issue, it is a personal issue. Hypothetically, how many people would have health care if here were no doctors or nurses?
    The answer is obviously none. Becoming a doctor is a learned profession, for you to demand that all doctors become agents of the government is absurd.

    The Constitution of the United States only expresses the need of the government to provide you a lawyer in the event you cannot afford one-even at that, you don’t get universal legal service, the SCOTUS has ruled on what you can get free lawyer services for, and even then, you get what you pay for. Had the founding Fathers wanted everyone to have free health care, they very would have written into the Constitution. Health care is NOT a right, it is a privilege.

    Under our current (and I agree broken) system, if a doctor screws up, you get to sue him. Well, to add to the FWIW column, just prior to retiring from the Navy, I was placed on Medical Hold, awaiting surgery for a sinus issue. First, the Navy Doctor failed to annotate my record correctly, and my retirement was not put on hold, as it was supposed to be. Second, the doctor screwed up the surgery, then transferred to another duty station and I am left trying to deal with an issue which occurred while on active duty, but not properly annotated, through the VA who only seems to be able to acknowledge that nothing in my medical record indicates the surgery was performed! The closest I have ever come to UHC was the crap I had while on active duty (and not just the example listed, if you want more, let me know how many, I can provide), I never ever want to see that from of medical care here in the US. If you want to witness UHC in action, go to a military base and look at sick call, you only have a few hours a day, and if your issue can’t be fixed by taking Motrin or Napracin, tough shit next case.
    To quote Alan Scott (sort of) Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

  49. “American pay a huge amount of money because it costs a huge amount of money to have great care.”

    LOL…and “great care” is apparently care that does *not* yield the absolute best medical results in the world on a whole range of measures…please…the Right-wing mantra on this issue is so old & completely out of whack with reality at this point…

    “Society isn’t ‘other people.’ It is ‘all of us,’ including me.”

    Exactly, but the Right-wing simply doesn’t believe in pooling the efforts & resources of the many to serve the needs of the many. For them, it’s every man for themself, period.

    “You did not choose to acquire the skills necessary to work for a large corporation, or perhaps you have those skills but chose not to apply for that kind of job.”

    Why should health care coverage be tied to employment?? Why are we intentionally hamstringing American companies that have to compete in a world where the vast majority of companies don’t have to worry about paying out-of-pocket costs for their employees health benefits??

    “Again, I’m not criticizing the path you have chosen.”

    OF COURSE you are…you’re just trying to be nice about it.

    “I wasn’t offended. I was merely wondering if your statement about my ‘retreat’ was representative of the typical quality of your statements and/or deductions.”

    It is…obviously…and thanks for noticing… :)

  50. Re: Be careful what you ask for

    Yes, if everyone has equal access to health care there might be snags. Things might take a bit longer, etc. From my point of view, things taking a bit longer would be a big motherfreakin’ win. You know, try comparing “longer” with “infinity” and stuff like that. A bit longer is a lot better than none at all. I could live with that. I think you’ll notice that the people who worry about such things are not among the one-sixth.

  51. Wigglesworth wrote:

    Once again I continue to raise points that no one even attempts to rebut.

    Perhaps you missed my reply?

  52. Mr. Guy wrote:

    Why should health care coverage be tied to employment??

    Why should food, housing, owning a car, buying all the things one buys, be tied to employment? Simply because all of those things cost money, and the way most people make money is to be employed. I’m not saying the employer should necessarily pay for medical coverage directly. But, if one earns enough money, one can pay for one’s own medical coverage.

    “Again, I’m not criticizing the path you have chosen.”

    OF COURSE you are…you’re just trying to be nice about it.

    No, I’m not. Everybody is entitled to whatever choices they want to make, as long as those choices don’t infringe on the rights of other people, or they don’t then demand that other people pay the consequences of their choices.

    I do not believe that anybody is entitled to health care, any more than they are entitled to food or housing. I believe it is incumbent on every individual to provide for themselves. That includes, at a minimum, food, housing, and health care. If they desire luxuries, like better food, better housing, better health care, a car, a television, entertainment, toys, etc., it is incumbent upon them to make the tradeoffs necessary in their lifestyle to provide for the things they want.

    If someone chooses to forego any of those things because they don’t want to compromise some other lifestyle choices they’ve made, that doesn’t bother me at all. — Until they come around and demand that I pay for the things for which they’ve chosen not to make the tradeoffs required to provide those things for themselves.

    One can feel morally superior for not being “ambitious,” but when that feeling of moral superiority turns into a sense of entitlement to be provided for by those to whom one feels morally superior, something is out of whack.

  53. Wigglesworth,

    I strongly recommend you check out the link I posted earlier, and follow it to the Canadian Health link. After watching the video clips, I think you will see that in many cases the wait is what ends up killing people. In one example, a Canadian couple mortgaged their home to come to the US to PAY for surgery because the wait in Canada was greater than 6 months, the US doctor (in Buffalo, NY I believe) told the wife, she didn’t have six months. There are stories like that from every nation that has UHC. In a socialized system, government determines what health care you get, another Canadian example, a women needed surgery, but was refused because she smoked when she was a teenager (it was legal), yet in her late 50’s she is denied care because she smoked. In London a 56 year old man was denied a hip replacement because it was not cost effective to the government-these stories are not the exception, they are the rule.

  54. DJ, one question. Please explain the ways in which waiting for health care is worse than none at all. I eagerly await your answer.

  55. I think I thought of yet another irrationality. If you like people surrounded by sick people, please raise your hand. How about working and living along side people who have contagious diseases but won’t seek out treatment due to the cost? I can imagine that leaving contagious diseases untreated might just affect transmission rates, and I don’t think contagious diseases stop to check your wallet before jumping on you, so this is something that affects us all.

  56. The Puritan work ethic demanded production of the individual and the concept of private property provided the mechanism for the reward of production. The ethic also esteemed individual freedom of choice but imposed a personal accountability for the wisdom or propriety of those choices. I guess you might call that a “every man for himself” attitude. The thing is that ethic created a system within which you found the most of the richest and most successful individuals anywhere in the world, currently or historically.

    When I grew up, if you needed healthcare, you called the doctor. He came to the house. When he was done, he presented a bill – just like any other service provider. Insurance got into the mix and the purchase of a policy was a free individual election. Collectivism didn’t get into the picture until unions came up with the concept of “benefits.”

    This was a remarkable deviation from the mindset of allowing the individual to provide for himself. Historically an employer would pay a wage and that wage would provide the individual whatever the individual wanted. What we seem to be experiencing is the widespread impact of conditioned attitude. We are now molded with an expectation that somebody – the employer or government – has an obligation to provide for us, one and all, regardless of our production contribution.

    If you analyze it, the maxim “from each according to his ability, and to each according to his needs” is an excellent description of slave labor.

    The way to bring down the cost of medical care and provide comfortable access to its benefits, is to fund 100 new medical schools.

  57. Well, my spouse is feeling better. Now I’m feeling sick, too.

    On my breaks, I like to listen to the news on the radio. Top story this hour: Swine Flu. Recommendation: If you are sick, stay home. They said it was the “responsible” thing to do.

    Nice thought. I’m sure that helps reduce additional transmissions.

    Minor problem, though. My employer doesn’t provide sick days, so yes, I’m at work, writing this post on my morning break.

    I doubt I have the swine flu, but whatever I have, I have no choice but to keep working so I can pay my rent.

  58. Oops! I almost forgot my new TEA Party sign idea in keeping with the original theme of this discussion:

    I’M A TRANSMISSION VECTOR!

  59. Wigglesworth,

    Please understand I have sympathy for your situation. If I had the power to help you out of your economic and medical problems, I would. Life is not always fair, but that is no reason to destroy a whole medical system.

    That said, I believe you are being sucked in to false hope by a liar and a confidence man. It would not be hard to name Obama’s deliberate lies, I just don’t think NYD would be able to give me the space to list them all.

    I stated before, that right now Obama can get away with anything. You know something is wrong when beauty contestants get tougher questions than the President of the United States.

    Now to directly respond to you. “What I get in response is: You’ve got blinders on! You’ll never acknowledge a fact. You don’t engage in honest debate. (Personal attacks.)”

    I am hurt by that remark. If I don’t acknowledge one of your facts it is because you have failed to convince me.

    “I raised that universal health care could be possible for 2% of the GDP. And it’s not my idea. It’s from the book “The Two Percent Solution” by Matthew Miller.”

    My area of interest is energy. I admit that I do not have much expertise in this specialty. My instincts tend to force me to trust DJ’s figures more, and not just because we are on the same team. First off, no socialistic program that I am aware of has ever stayed with in it’s original projected cost. Can you say MEDICARE? Second of all, I have some reservations believing anyone who both worked for Bill Clinton and appears on MSNBC.

    “A Christian friend of mine called me a “Kool-Aid drinker” yesterday because I happen to support Obama. I think that about sums it all up. If you supported McCain/Palin you were right, righteous, and a true American. If you support Obama you are merely a Kool-Aid drinker. (This is the good vs. evil thing again, kids.)”

    Hey the election is over. You won, we lost. But let’s get in to good versus bad. McCain and Palin lost. Game over, shake hands, everybody goes home. So why are a bunch of Democrat lawyer scumbags up in Alaska harassing Governor Palin with nuisance suits? I bet Barak Obama isn’t even aware of this. When someone tells him, he will put a stop to this.

  60. “I’m not saying the employer should necessarily pay for medical coverage directly. But, if one earns enough money, one can pay for one’s own medical coverage”

    …and then they can pay through the nose, kind of like I’m doing right now. After paying for my own health care for some time now, since my current employer doesn’t cover anything, I can totally relate to why people (especially healthy people) don’t bother buying health care insurance. You pay hundreds & hundres of dollars per month…only to get basically nothing in return except the “privledge” of belonging to an insurance group that tells you which doctor you can go & see, which medications you can take, how often you can go to certain doctors or take certain medications, and then when it comes time for that group to pay for medical care…they frequently don’t pay anywhere near the entire amount & you basically need to be an accountant to figure out what you owe your medical provider (either upfront or after the fact).

    As for one paying “for one’s own medical coverage” through the use of a Medical (or Health) Savings Account, some of those require that you accurately calculate the amount of money that you might spend in a year (or risk having any “excess” monies being gobbled up by the corporation running the MSA/HSA at the end of that year), and you will *definitely* be paying top rates from providers that are as high as they can make them up, in order for them to try & make up for the massive cost shifts that occur in our health care industry. Without belonging to a larger group of individuals that are trying to get similar types of health care, you just end up paying through the nose.

    Let’s face it NYD, you & the rest of your Right-wing fringe buddies are just plain selfish. You’ve got yours & you could care less if anyone else gets theirs, period.

    “After watching the video clips, I think you will see that in many cases the wait is what ends up killing people”

    …and the fear-mongering about single-payer systems continue. If you don’t think that there are MANY people right here in the USA that wait for health care, then you are sadly mistaken. Try showing up at your local doctor’s office without an appointment and see what happens…

    “In a socialized system, government determines what health care you get”

    …and the in the USA, some faceless corporation gets to decide who gets what care when, if at all.

    “these stories are not the exception, they are the rule.”

    No, they aren’t, and anyone that’s actually BEEN to any of these countries knows that, period.

    “Collectivism didn’t get into the picture until unions came up with the concept of ‘benefits'”

    …which, of course, is a dirty word in the Right-wing. Heaven forbid that a worker be treated with any dignity by their employer…sheesh…

  61. I believed in universal health care long before I even knew that Obama existed. Frankly I’m not too up on his exact plans, but whatever they are, I’m sure they will fall *far* short of my vision. :)

    The medical system is already broken. Let’s leave it alone and see how that goes. Many seem to be of a mindset that the current way is the only possible way. I would argue that can hardly be proven.

    I think you have a valid point regarding “socialistic programs.” I have a personal theory that the rate of financial malfeasance increases sharply as the amount of money in question goes up. It’s probably one of the most direct causal relationships to be found in the realm of human behavior. But that’s not a free market thing or a socialist thing or a left vs. right thing. That’s purely a human thing. It will be always universally true to any system we come up with.

    Sorry to disappoint, but I actually don’t support any systems that are 100% “socialistic.” I’m sure that will generate guffaws and skepticism, but what I’ve actually said repeatedly is that some sort of hybrid system could possibly be the best way to go.

    I think “Kool-Aid drinker” is overly mean-spirited, especially coming from someone who considers himself a devout Christian. I’ve never once put down his beliefs in conservatism or religion. This particular person has earned a permanent asterisk in my memory banks.

    Why are people harassing Palin? I don’t know. I can only speak for myself. Until you brought it up I was unaware of the issue. But I can say I’m tired of the quid pro quo of traditional bitter partisan politics. But I don’t see any end to it, either.

  62. Wigglesworth,

    “Please explain the ways in which waiting for health care is worse than none at all.”

    I am not exactly sure what you are asking, so here goes a shot…
    The wait that is inherent in all UHC systems is the product of too many people “needing” treatment and not enough doctors/nurses to provide it. When something is available for free, the item gets abused; this is the primary reason why ER’s are crowded. If ALL people entering an ER had to pay, the wait would be minimal. In the examples I provided above, the wait is what caused the death in many instances (see Japan). Having no health care at all is a choice. If the employer you choose to work for doesn’t provide a plan, and you choose not get health care on your own, then obviously you have made a conscious choice that health care is not important to you.

    Here is a link for health insurance, I used a SW Michigan zip code and the birthdates of my wife and myself (mid 40’s) and found 12 plans ranging in price from $160.00 per month to $321.00 per month https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/ehi/Alliance?allid=Goo25151&sid=CORE. There are literally HUNDREDS of sites out there to get medical insurance. I understand, money is tight, I am pretty sure if health coverage is as important to you as you make it seem, finding $160.00 a month (probably less in your case) isn’t going to be that difficult, you have to CHOOSE what your priorities are, and I personally would take an extra job delivering pizzas or flipping burgers if I need health care coverage that badly.

    I am very glad your wife is feeling better; I hope you start getting better as well.

  63. DJ, thanks once again for a quality reply. Much appreciated! :)

    All I meant is: I’d rather have to wait a bit than have no health insurance at all. That seems just fine and dandy to me.

  64. Wigglesworth,

    DJ gave good information.
    I don’t know if this will be of any value to you but, I’ll throw it at the wall and see if it sticks anyway. My kid recently finished school and was dropped by my insurance. Cobra was well over $400 per month. Uninsured was the choice for months. My kid was able to finally find insurance from Aetna on the web at $150 per month. This is in Pennsylvania. Granted your age and other factors would make this higher for you.

    I’d like to take another stab at the pie here. Cost, Cost, Cost is the main problem. If the cost of healthcare was affordable, you’d rather provide for your own needs than have the gov. do it. Obama plans to merely shift the cost from users to others. He would control costs by shafting doctors and hospitals. Yea that’ll work. It will work too well.

    The company that controls our two small local hospitals is shutting down it’s baby delivery rooms. Reasons, state medicade is shafting them on payments. Add to that mal practice insurance and now mothers have to go out of the area to give birth. Too bad government won’t shaft their rich lawyer buddies, instead of doctors, nurses, and hospitals.

  65. When I grew up, if you needed healthcare, you called the doctor. He came to the house. When he was done, he presented a bill – just like any other service provider. Insurance got into the mix and the purchase of a policy was a free individual election. Collectivism didn’t get into the picture until unions came up with the concept of “benefits.”

    This was a remarkable deviation from the mindset of allowing the individual to provide for himself. Historically an employer would pay a wage and that wage would provide the individual whatever the individual wanted.

    And therein lies the problem. Very good point, Jackson.

  66. The following article makes the point that employer provided health care plans really reached their present form in response to WW2 wage and price controls. They were a way to compete for workers when you could not raise their pay.

    http://www.i2i.org/main/article.php?article_id=1370

  67. “Historically an employer would pay a wage and that wage would provide the individual whatever the individual wanted.”

    My friend’s wife has bad headaches and finally had to go to the doctor. Incidentally, this friend has some insurance through his wife’s employer, Fred Meyer. It pays 80 percent.

    The doctor said the wife needed an MRI. The cost to my friend? $2,000. That means the total cost of the MRI is $10,000. Even with the 80% paid by insurance my friend couldn’t afford it. But they did it anyway.

    The MRI turned up a spot and now even more expensive stuff that they can’t afford needs to be done.

    It is a very scary time for them made worse by the fact that it’s going to completely wipe them out financially.

  68. I don’t know why I do this, but Mr. Guy actually brought up a point which I want to address.

    “As for one paying “for one’s own medical coverage” through the use of a Medical (or Health) Savings Account, some of those require that you accurately calculate the amount of money that you might spend in a year (or risk having any “excess” monies being gobbled up by the corporation running the MSA/HSA at the end of that year),”

    I have medical coverage at my work, but with major medical deductibles, there is a lot of stuff that comes out of my pocket. About 3 years ago my employer offered a medical savings plan. In the small shop I work out of, I was the only one who signed up. The argument against being that what if you don’t use all of the money, you lose it. That did happen to me once for a small amount.

    I also sometimes had expenses disallowed. With experience I have figured out the system. There is some BS to it. The paperwork sucks. However, after 3 years I know what documentation the nerds want. The last 2 years I have used up my full $600 with months left in the year.

    You can deduct some over the counter meds, prescriptions, and all kinds of stuff, but you better have detailed receipts. Even if you have a light medical year, with a wife and kids, you can find ways to get receipts to use up that money. This is $600 that I don’t pay Federal income taxes on. As I have failed to convince my co-workers of, why wouldn’t you take advantage of these accounts, whether you have coverage or not?

  69. Wigglesworth,

    “My friend’s wife has bad headaches and finally had to go to the doctor.”
    “The MRI turned up a spot and now even more expensive stuff that they can’t afford needs to be done.

    It is a very scary time for them made worse by the fact that it’s going to completely wipe them out financially.”

    Does your friend or his wife belong to a church, synagogue, or similar community? Frequently these will run fundraisers for family members with catastrophic medical expenses. They will also sometimes help with transportation to doctors. You want to tap all sources of possible help.

  70. Alan, I appreciate the thought. I’ll check into that. Thanks! :)

  71. Medical care is a service, bought and paid for. One can pay it oneself. One can purchase an insurance policy and have the insurance company pay for it. Or one can expect that the government will recognize that everyone has a moral entitlement to the service and force everybody to pay for one’s service.

    The only reason this is an issue is that medical treatment and sophisticated drugs have grown very exotic and their cost has grown so crushingly expensive. Health insurance is available for the 1/6 who are without insurance. The problem is that they cannot afford it.

    In the first place, is that a moral problem or an economic one?

    In the second place, so what? I could really use a $5000 hearing aid. I can’t afford it. Is that America’s problem or mine?

    In the third place, the government is the last entity to trust to effectively manage anything other than a war. Back in Carter’s day we created a Department of Energy. Their purpose was to end our dependence on foreign oil. Today they have a budget in excess of $24 billion with thousands of employees. Given 30 years of such government investment, what do we have to show for it?

  72. If America was a native American tribe (bear with me here) the medical care might work a little like this:

    Get sick. Go see the medicine man, who tells you: I will help you, but it will cost you everything you make for the next 20 years.

    Doesn’t seem like a very workable system.

  73. “Back in Carter’s day we created a Department of Energy. Their purpose was to end our dependence on foreign oil.”

    This isn’t entirely true at all. The U.S. DOE is responsible for energy policy & nuclear safety, and its responsibilities include the nation’s nuclear weapons program, nuclear reactor production for the U.S. Navy, energy conservation, energy-related research, radioactive waste disposal, and domestic energy production. The DOE also sponsors more basic & applied scientific research than any other U.S. federal agency. According the DOE’s own website, “the Department of Energy’s overarching mission is to advance the national, economic, and energy security of the United States; to promote scientific and technological innovation in support of that mission; and to ensure the environmental cleanup of the national nuclear weapons complex.”

    I would put to all of you that the DOE *finally* has someone in charge of it that WILL be working to eventually end our dependence on foreign oil, and he’ll have a heck of a lot of people in the Right-wing that will be fighting him all the way.

  74. George H.W. Bush once accused Ronaldus Magnus of engaging in ” Voodoo economics”. Bush eventually saw the error of his ways. I don’t believe I will ever be proven in error if I propose a tea party sign slogan saying:

    * Obamanomics is voodoonomics.

    Whether you are talking healthcare or energy, it still comes down to economics. Obama’s projections about healthcare costs are pure BS. It would be nice if no one had to pay for Obama Claus’s bag of goodies, but real life don’t work that way.

    Should we talk about Crap and trade. Even some Democrats are beginning to let microscopic rays of understanding in to their small minds. Mostly the ones that either mine or use a lot of coal.

  75. Wigglesworth:

    The risk of disaster is part of life. Historically, most people could not afford the loss of their house to fire or other natural disaster. The concept of pooling the risk came along and insurance was born.

    After a time, relying upon insurance, people chose to build in riskier and riskier places. As the losses mounted, the premium for the insurance grew larger and larger to the point that most people cannot afford even the insurance on a high risk house, let alone the house itself.

    Health care is in the same category. The service itself has become incredibly expensive. Accordingly, the cost of the insurance has grown to the point that many cannot afford even the insurance, let alone the service. As a counter-consideration, the indigent did not have even the availability of the treatment prior to the expensive medical breakthrough.

    At the end of the day, our consumption is limited by our means. If we can afford the treatment, we buy it. If we cannot, we don’t.

    Having the government buy it for us just doesn’t work out.

    Point: the administration just announced that we can only afford to provide medical care for the retired portion of our society for another 7 years.

    Solution: provide medical care for everybody.

    Presumably it will be better if we all go broke at the same time.

  76. I find it amusing that folks who decry the “bureaucracy” of government are suddenly all for it when it’s “health care” operating under the glorious auspices of “free market.” Health care bureaucracy makes government look like twiddly winks. Once you understand that, and the built-in job security for all sorts of porkish health care jobs and procedures, you can begin to understand why the system is so broken. The only reason the health care industry gets away with this is because they’ve got society by the balls.

    • Wiggles, I don’t think you understand the nature of my objection to government bureaucracies. The fundamental difference between government bureaucracy and bureaucracy in the free market is the coercion factor.

      In the free market, you can choose whichever health insurance company you believe provides the best value for your money. You can also choose not to have health insurance, and you will not be prosecuted for that.

      With government bureaucracies, you do not have a choice. You are forced to fund every government bureaucracy, whether you like it or not, and you will be prosecuted if you don’t. That’s coercion.

      I don’t object to all taxes. Government has a legitimate role. But out-of-control government bureaucracy is a grossly inefficient waste of my money, over which I have no control. That’s what I object to.

  77. In the free market you can get fired for almost anything. In government you can get get away with almost anything. You can’t fire your government health care service provider for poor performance. You can’t tip them for superior performance either.

  78. I wonder how many people would have cable and internet connection rather then make payments towards bills, medical or otherwise.

    Surely, we can see many areas where we are personally able to make a difference. We don’t need to see all these movies and other elective things, yet local video business and theaters always have plenty of customers. I imagine everyone on here has plenty of music cd’s. We have libraries where we can study history (which will answer all of the questions upstream), get online, and even check out videos and music.

    Perhaps we can all agree that ‘Taxes Suck” would be a great sign. People don’t expect to not pay taxes, it’s the taxes in excess and unrepresented that seem to be problematic.

    My best suggestion would be to have these types of discussions while never mentioning ‘the other’ political party and use facts, history, truth, and accuracy. If it is better you want, it may not be as inexpensive as you’d like. If inexpensive is the main thing, it will suffer in the ‘best’ category. If we want research, it’s extremely costly. The USA excels in that area. Let’s just simmer down, put the partisan preferences aside, and work on what works, whether more this side or that.

    Black is black, white is white, 2 + 2 = 4, and there is much room for agreement and discussion without the blame game, guilt trip, and assumptions, and my guy is better then your guy. I don’t care whose guy, lets promote things that work.

    Let’s start all over. You game? Perhaps we could even ask NYD to create us a post for this discussion, where we could come back to it without getting off track.

  79. The alignment of the Republican party, with that “Global Multi-National Corporation,” (British Petroleum,) and the positioning of themselves as their defender against the actions of our “American President” and “American Government,” will be viewed by the American people as an act of TREASON!

    The people of the Gulf Region are suffering in a multitude of ways because of that “Deep Water” oil spill. This spill is and was demanding of immediate relief from the consequences of that deep water disaster.

    The fact that President Obama had demanded and had created a Monetary Fund from BP to pay to the victims of BP’s criminal negligence should be applauded by all Americans!

    The response by the “Tea Par-tiers” of immediate condemnation of the President for his efforts on behalf of those that were in dire need, because of this Multi-Corporation’s criminal activity, will be remembered, and be reflected by those that are not blinded, by “PARTY LOYALTY, in the coming elections.

    I said it before and I will say it again! “The TEA PARTY” Ideology of automatically siding with the “Private Sector,” and always condemning the “Public Sector,” without giving any thought to context and the specific situation, will become the “Weight” that will sink the “Republican Party!”

  80. Mr. Walters,

    ” will become the “Weight” that will sink the “Republican Party!” ”

    Going by your record so far, I am betting against you. Well I would actually, if I thought you would pay up .

    • Alan Scott,

      The “TEA PARTY” and their BLIND SUPPORTERS are out of their league when it comes to “NATIONAL POLITICS!

      The NATION as a whole will enjoy and laugh at their quaint ways and way out politics, but sanity will prevail in the end, and they and all that they represent will be consigned to the trash can of our no longer useful past, and our nation will once again move forward into a more progressive and enlightened future.


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