What Have Progressives Got Against Progress?

Liberals don’t want to be called liberal anymore. They prefer to be referred to as “progressive.”

Conservatives don’t mind being called conservative. In fact, most conservatives are proud to be conservative (and equally proud to be American). And why not? Starting with the vision of our founding fathers, the traditional conservative values of independence, individualism, and self-determination motivated the early settlers and pioneers and, later, the industrialists and entrepreneurs who built this country into the greatest and most powerful nation on earth.

But why are liberals suddenly ashamed of the word liberal? Why do they feel the need to redefine themselves as something else? And why have they chosen the singularly inappropriate term “progressive” to describe themselves? It almost seems as if they’re begging the question. After all, what is progress? Reviewing the history of civilization, progress has traditionally been marked by significant advances that made the cultures that developed them more efficient and productive, enabling them to prosper and to expand their territory and culture.

More advanced civilizations often used their technological sophistication to conquer less advanced civilizations and, historically, it was largely as a result of war that progress spread from culture to culture. The conquering armies have not always been the aggressors. It was Japan that attacked the U.S. in WWII. But Japan would not be the major economic power it is today if the U.S. had not defeated it, and rebuilt it as a modern industrial/technological nation.

There have been episodes in history when more advanced civilizations have been overrun by less advanced civilizations that were more focused on military progress. That’s one reason why a nation should never allow itself to become weak militarily, no matter how advanced it may be in other areas. Mr. Obama recently promised to “cut investments in unproven missile defense systems,” “slow our development of future combat systems,” and make “deep cuts in our nuclear arsenal.” Conservatives cringed, but liberals loved it.

All types of progress entail tradeoffs. As vast tracts of land are cultivated, the native species on those lands must either find new environments, adapt, or die. The extraction of raw materials from the earth causes disruption of habitats. The production of metals, plastics, paper, and the manufacture of goods all cause various forms of pollution. But without these trade-offs, civilization as we know it would not be possible.

Liberals don’t believe in trade-offs. They continually seek to enact regulations to curtail any kind of progress that impacts the environment. They want to sequester vast extents of land into national wilderness areas, preventing the extraction of natural resources like minerals, timber, or oil. They want to enact cap and trade regulations that will jack up the costs of the energy we require to live our daily lives, and which is also required to fuel all types of industrial and technological progress.

Progress is always a result of trial and error. Significant advances require significant investments in time, effort, and money, and entail enormous risks because there is no guarantee of success. Who has the kind of money to invest in making progress possible? Capitalists. Why would they be willing to take those enormous risks? Because there’s a possibility of an enormous payoff. They calculate the risk/benefit ratio and, only if the potential rewards significantly outweigh the risks, does it make sense to invest. Yet liberals don’t think anyone deserves such enormous rewards, and would tax their profits to the point where it’s no longer worth the risk to invest. Without capital investment, progress cannot occur.

Liberals like to point out that the income gap between rich and poor is getting greater all the time. But they ignore the fact that the standard of living of the poor gets greater all the time, too. The poorest people today have a higher standard of living than the vast majority of people had a hundred years ago. And the reason they do is all the industrial and technological advances made possible by capitalism. That is true progress. And it benefits the poor as well as the wealthy.

Despite what liberals believe, capitalism is not a zero sum game. When new industries evolve, new opportunities are created. The fact that some people get very rich doesn’t mean other people have to get poor. But those who don’t have the motivation to work hard, better themselves, and pursue opportunities, will always be poor. And the easier the government makes it to be poor, by subsidizing poverty, the more people will take the easy way out.

Liberal ideology is consistently opposed to progress. They continually demand regulations that stymie progress, and they want the government to take more money away from those who fuel the scientific, industrial, and technological advances that define progress. They believe that money should be redistributed to those who don’t contribute to progress, but are its beneficiaries.

Since liberals are so opposed to progress, why is it they want to be known as “progressives?”


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  1. Studies have shown that Americans describing themselves as “happy” peaked back in the 50’s and 60’s and has held steady or declined since that time. Technology has not, apparently, done anything to make us “happier.”

  2. I don’t think they refer to themselves as “progressive” for any technological or advance-the-human-race mentality NYD, I believe it to be more of ideological recognition of who they REALLY are. Below is the Progressive Party platform from 1924, the link follows;

    “Conference for Progressive Political Action Platform, 1924*

    For 148 years the American people have been seeking to establish a government for the service of all and to prevent the establishment of a government for the mastery of the few. Free men of every generation must combat renewed efforts of organized force and greed to destroy liberty. Every generation must wage a new war for freedom against new forces that seek through new devices to enslave mankind.

    Under our representative democracy the people protect their liberties through their public agents.

    The test of public officials and public polities alike must be: Will they serve or will they exploit the common need?

    The reactionary continues to put his faith in mastery for the solution of all problems. He seeks to have what he calls the strong men and best minds rule and impose their decisions upon the masses of their weaker brethren.

    The progressive, on the contrary, contends for less autocracy and more democracy in government, for less power of privilege and greater obligations of service.

    Under the principle of ruthless individualism and competition, that government is deemed best which offers to the few the greatest chance of individual gain.

    Under the progressive principle of cooperation, that government is deemed best which offers to the many the highest level of average happiness and well being.

    It is our faith that we all go up or down together–that class gains are temporary delusions and that eternal laws of compensation make every man his brother’s keeper.”

    Link: http://www.democracyforwashington.com/civicspace-0.5/?q=progressiveplatform1924

    Anything sound familiar? It appears to me that today’s “Progressives” are are merely showing their true socialist colors!

  3. “But why are liberals suddenly ashamed of the word liberal?”

    LOL…they’re not, but nice strawman post anyways NYD…

    “progress has traditionally been marked by significant advances that made the cultures that developed them more efficient and productive”

    One of the tenets of progressism IS efficiency…by having governments function better by being placed under the direction of trained professional administrators, centralization of more rational decision-making processes in govt., and reducing the number of govt. officials & eliminating overlapping areas of authority between govt. departments.

    Being strong involves being smart as well…cutting “investments in unproven missile defense systems”, slowing “our development of future combat systems” that we really don’t need, and making “deep cuts in our nuclear arsenal” which won’t help in the fight against Al-Qaeda are smart moves IMO.

    Massive pollution is not, by any means, a certain by-product of industry. There are much more efficient & cleaner ways to do things. I’m at a loss as to why “conservatives” do not support them more often. Waste is hardly ever the smartest choice in our toolbox.

    “Who has the kind of money to invest in making progress possible? Capitalists.”

    …and govt. as well. Why can’t they work hand-in-hand??

    “Yet liberals don’t think anyone deserves such enormous rewards, and would tax their profits to the point where it’s no longer worth the risk to invest.”

    When was the last time that anyone advocated for something like this??

    “The fact that some people get very rich doesn’t mean other people have to get poor.”

    I sometimes wonder if you really live in the real world NYD. Too much of our current economic system cannot survive without having those at the very top exploiting those at the very bottom.

    “Liberal ideology is consistently opposed to progress.”

    Tell that to Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, FDR,
    Booker T. Washington, Susan B. Anthony, Ralph Nader, Eleanor Roosevelt, Wayne Morse, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Harry S. Truman, Henry A. Wallace, Ida B. Wells, and Frank P. Zeidler…just to name a few.

    You must remember what had been going on back in the late 19th & early 20th century…the powers of the trusts & the Robber Barons were huge and needed to be broken up. We must *never* return to those days. Nobody believes the red herrings that are continually thrown against the Left anymore…give that tired, old nonsense the boot…

  4. Nice essay, NYD.
    They are trying to put lipstick on a pig with their new, self chosen Progressive label, but ewww!!!! It is still a pig. More of the same bad old ideas.
    I’m pretty moderate, I think McCain strikes the right balance between liberal and conservative views and would be a far better choice than taking a hard-left turn.

  5. I’ve written, and will continue to write, that what Lefties propose as policy is nothing more than removing the Commons from uses that they disagree with.

    There is a corolary: the extension of the Commons into private spaces. Does the wearing of a seat-belt make me a safe driver? No, and while it may be true that the choice to wear a seatbelt may reduce the injury from an accident, does your behaviour in your own private place deserve regulation by the state? (Consider the relative strength of this argument closely.)

    And does the state’s ability to determine whether or not I wear a seatbelt, use a carseat for my 14-year old child–who happens to be short–or a helmet when I ride my motorcycle or bicycle extend to whether or not I choose to smoke at home? In a public park? At my favourite bar? At my place of business?

    I believe there is an attempt by the Left to impose a tyranny of the Commons, and it the responsibility of those who oppose the Left to take back use of the Commons. It is true that my car “pollutes”. It is true that harvesting wheat creates “haze”. And it is true that the Oregon Department of Environmental Quality has haze clearly in its sights as it extends its reach through the boundaries of the Commons.

    But the use of the Commons is our Right. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be the Commons, but something else. Perhaps, the Select? The Province of the Right-Minded People Who Know More Than You?
    .

  6. Congratulations to the McCain campaign for picking Sarah Palin for VP.
    Awesome choice.
    Obama has taken a dead-cat bounce in the polls.
    If Obama had picked Hillary for VP, McCain would have no chance.
    If McCain had picked anyone but Palin for VP, he would have had no chance.
    I have not seen the republicans I know this excited in a long time, especially the conservative ones, this is great.

  7. “while it may be true that the choice to wear a seatbelt may reduce the injury from an accident, does your behaviour in your own private place deserve regulation by the state?”

    Hey, if we had a system where you & you alone paid for all of the higher bills that were associated with a crash that caused greater injury (or death) to yourself, then great. But, we don’t have that kind of system…when your insurance pays for the result of your crash (or your child’s crash)…we all pay a little bit more through our own premiums. There is a greater good being enforced through seatbelt, car seat, and helmet laws IMO, but I don’t think that there should be “primary enforcement” of those laws though.

    You want to smoke at home and pollute yourself and your own family (if they can stand it), then great…but don’t do it to others that haven’t given their consent in a public place or a place of business.

    I thought Obama’s VP pick was bad, until I saw McSame’s pick…lol… I’m sure that lady is a nice person, but she is in no way, shape, or form qualified to be President. I saw an article yesterday that stated it very nicely…she’s had more experience fishing than in public postions. Obviously for McSame…it’s desperation time…

  8. “…but she is in no way, shape, or form qualified to be President.”

    She is the VP candidate moron. And she has more experience at leading than BHO does. Look at her record not some lefty talking point (oops, my bad, your not allowed to). Here is a good, fair (left leaning) article on her (link doesn’t work so I have copy-pasted, my apologies):

    McCain Taps Gov. Sarah Palin
    As Presidential Running Mate
    By LAURA MECKLER, ELIZABETH HOLMES and JIM CARLTON
    August 29, 2008 1:36 p.m.

    [Edited by NYD. Posting an entire article is a violation of copyright laws. You can post a quote from an article, with a link to the original source, but posting an entire article is only allowed with permission from the copyright holder.
    DJ, if you can find a link to the article, please send it to me, and I’ll insert it here. Thank you.]

  9. “She is the VP candidate moron. And she has more experience at leading than BHO does.”

    So, whatever McSame does or says is always the truth, period?? I don’t think so. Someone with 6 years as mayor of a small town & less than 2 years as governor of AK of all places is a joke. And to think that I thought that Obama was maybe pushing it with 8 years in the IL state Senate & 4 years in the U.S. Senate. Give me a break!

    McSame & Palin only spoke *once* on the phone before he picked her…it’s ridiculous! This is just a stab in the dark to try and grab some disaffected, former Hillary supporters, and it won’t work because the vast majority of them aren’t going to vote for a woman that doesn’t believe in abortion rights. Biden (who I dislike BTW) is going to absolutely CREAM her in the debates! Executive experience is fine, but you have to have had REAL executive experience for it to mean anything. When was the last time that anything happened of any national importance in AK??

    Let’s be honest here…I thought that Obama’s VP pick was bad…until I saw McSame’s! Obama picking Biden means that his polling was showing that he needed someone with more “experience” than he did on his ticket (duh!), but picking Biden (someone with basically only Senate experience…just like McSame) undercuts his “change” message by picking a Washington insider. McSame had to obviously pick someone younger than him (duh!), but picking Palin only undercuts his message than Obama isn’t “experienced” enough to be President. Obama’s message that resume experience is not as important as judgement has resonated because the Washington insiders (like Biden & McSame) have gotten all kinds of important decisions wrong…like Iraq for one.

    “she shines” with nothing but fluff, period.

  10. Each of your “points” came directly from the DNC headquarters didn’t they? LOL, Take a few moments and do some research on Goverenor Palin you’ll find she is quite capable. Taking on the very corrupt RNC in Alaska and wining, giving 400 million tax payer dollars previously “earmarked” for the Bridge to Nowhere, are two quick examples of what you will find that define her commintment and her LEADERSHIP.

    You REALLY don’t believe that John McCain said “Hey, I can get 18 million votes by putting some young broad on the bottom of the ticket, those Clintonites are to stupid to look at policy anyway” GET REAL!!Governor Palin, a self discribed Pro-life, reformer was picked because she is not a WASHINGTON INSIDER, please, Comrade, get real, no one with 2 ounces of common sense honestly believes women will vote for the McCain-Palin ticket because Governor Palin is a women. Using that logic, you most also confess BHO is getting the balck vote solely because he is black (very sexist and racist positions you have taken there sir!)

    McCain and Governor Palin are well aware that the pro-choicers are not going to vote for the ticket just because she is a “her”, the only segment the ticket could remotely hope to pull are the PUMAs, I don’t think many of them will piss away there collectivist ideological views just to vote for a woman…surely you jest!

    Looks like the wind is coming out of the BHO sails!

  11. “Each of your ‘points’ came directly from the DNC headquarters didn’t they?”

    Nope, I wrote them all myself thanks. Do some research on Palin yourself…even members of her own Party in AK, including high-ranking members of the state legislature, are speaking out about Palin’s complete & total lack of experience to be President and her lackluster record in AK so far. It’s a total joke…

    The “Bridge to Nowhere”…turns out she was for it before she was against it:

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_08/014466.php

    medianation.blogspot.com/2008/08/palin-favored-bridge-to-nowhere.html

    http://www.peachpundit.com/2008/08/30/palin-was-for-the-bridge-to-nowhere-before-she-was-against-it/

    McSame’s desperation pick is already losing her shine, and it’s only day ONE since she’s been picked.

    “Looks like the wind is coming out of the BHO sails!”

    Only in your dreams “DJ”…only in your dreams…LOL!!

  12. Poor, stupid Democrats:

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/08302008/news/columnists/a_brilliant_trap_makes_dems_the_male_cha_126765.htm

  13. “5. Would you continue state funding for the proposed Knik Arm and Gravina Island bridges?

    Yes. I would like to see Alaska’s infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now – while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.”

    Read the comment again Comrade Guy, the question is regarding STATE FUNDING, not FEDERAL funding. If you do a little research, you will find that the State of Alaska has (like every other state) a “congressional delegation” nice try though, if you all are reaching that far to find dirt on Governor Palin, you MUST be running scared!

    LOL Looks like BHO and the Dems not only had the wind knocked out of their sails, but they have run aground! Keep up the (talking points) effort though, ya’ll are scrambling and it has been 2 days since the announcement, be afraid, be VERY afraid Comrade Guy!

  14. Comrade Guy makes an interesting point. He believes that he has the right to create a public space where none had previously existed. Because he can rationalize the extension of the commons into place where the commons never existed before. And to exit those with whom their use of the new commons he disagrees. Why? Because he has a view of the commons that removes the essence of commons from our generalized understanding of the commons.

    In the quaint, dreamy world of Comrade Guy, men are strong and women are fertile and equal. We get to work on $700 bicycles because they are clean, and forget that the manufacture of his bike is dependent upon men who pull ore from the soil, rubber from trees, chemicals from the ground, and pulls these raw resources together at a plant that makes steel, tires and bicycle seats. He will decry your use of lands offshore to produce more oil, at the same time he browses webpages on a computer screen that wouldn’t exist without that resource utilization. And see no inconsistency in his “world view”.

    Comrade Guy, as a modern-day Jeremiah is a walking recapitulation of the worst prophets of the modern era: Malthus to Ehrlich, Hobbes to Marx. Even Comrade Gore would be happy with his work. Point-by-point refutation. And never seeing that it is simply in this point-by-point refutation that he cobbles a motley political view, borrowing from here and there in an attempt to patch up a world view that is at least a challenge to your right to simply exist in his world. He will not be served until all those who view his elitism as a challenge, to our authority to access the commons, simply no longer exist.

    That being done, he will begin to diminish the remaining half. With point-by-point refutations in an incoherent defense of an inchoate political view. It’s time for Comrade Guy to out himself. It’s simply time, for those of us who disagree with him and his agenda, to die. There is no room in his life for those he disagrees with. And it is time for a New World Order to come to life. Or, Change. (Why are the lyrics of Five Man Electrical Band running through my head?) It’s almost counter-revolutionairy, innit?
    .

  15. “the question is regarding STATE FUNDING, not FEDERAL funding.”

    So much for the MYTH that she was against funding the “Bridge to Nowhere” then…LOL!

    “Looks like BHO and the Dems not only had the wind knocked out of their sails, but they have run aground!”

    Your knack for “analysis” is on display again here for all to see. It’s kind of hard to have “run aground” when you are ahead…LOL!!

    “He believes that he has the right to create a public space where none had previously existed.”

    Keep the warped, Right-wing spin coming there…I wasn’t aware that obvious public spaces were suddenly not public anymore just because you say so.

    “Because he has a view of the commons that removes the essence of commons from our generalized understanding of the commons.”

    I’m not sure if your rhetoric on this issue qualifies as double or triple (or more) talk, but it sure as heck doesn’t make any sense!

    “In the quaint, dreamy world of Comrade Guy, men are strong and women are fertile and equal.”

    What a surprise, another “conservative” that apparently doesn’t believe that men are equal to women…ugh… Why do you have a woman on the GOP ticket this year again??

    “He will decry your use of lands offshore to produce more oil, at the same time he browses webpages on a computer screen that wouldn’t exist without that resource utilization.”

    I wasn’t aware that there was petroleum in my LCD.

    Sorry, we broke the Malthusian Cycle when the Industrial Revolution (which started in America in my home city BTW) came to pass.

    “borrowing from here and there in an attempt to patch up a world view that is at least a challenge to your right to simply exist in his world.”

    Are you hearing voices in your head as well??

    “It’s simply time, for those of us who disagree with him and his agenda, to die.”

    Where would the fun be in that?? It must be depressing though for those on the Right in this country to see all that they have ever dreamed of going down the toilet…get some help…

  16. “So much for the MYTH that she was against funding the “Bridge to Nowhere” then…LOL!”

    Again, Comrade Guy, do a little research, GOVERNOR Palin, said in her acceptance speech, she did not want FEDERAL MONEY for the bridge, she then went on to say “If we want to build a bridge, we will build it ourselves.” That does not imply she is against a bridge, it says, quite clearly, that she, and the people of Alaska, do not want FEDERAL MONEY, but will use STATE funds. You really need to do a bit of fact checking.

    “Your knack for “analysis” is on display again here for all to see. It’s kind of hard to have “run aground” when you are ahead…LOL!!”

    That makes absolutely no sense, ahead or not, the “Obama ship” can (and has) run aground, keep trying little trooper.

  17. You’re really unbelievable “DJ”…as if it’s OK to waste ANY kind of money on a “Bridge to Nowhere”…so much for fiscal responsibility AND the myth that Palin was against funding for the “Bridge to Nowhere”.

    Keep dreaming about a McSame victory too…he’s sloooowly goin’ down the tubes as we speak…

  18. LOL, keep trying Comrade Guy! As usual you are WRONG.

    First, if the people of Alaska want a bridge built, and the legislature approves the funding, a bridge will be built. GOVERNOR Palin has no issue with the bridge being built, her issue, as was CLEARLY STATED was against Federal funds for the bridge. If that’s all you you lefties got, Its beginning to look like a McCain-Palin LANDSLIDE.

  19. “GOVERNOR Palin has no issue with the bridge being built, her issue, as was CLEARLY STATED was against Federal funds for the bridge. If that’s all you you lefties got, Its beginning to look like a McCain-Palin LANDSLIDE.”

    You’re supposed to drink the Right-wing Kool-Aid “DJ”…not snort it…LOL!!

  20. Wow Comrade Guy, You sure made me feel bad…lol, it must really be sad to be you.

    Have you run out of relevant items to debate?

  21. “Have you run out of relevant items to debate?”

    And the point of debating with a wing-nut that actually believes that a “landslide” in favor of McSame is actually possible would be what?? You’re obviously so deluded by your ideology that providing relevant facts (as I’ve done in the past with you) is pointless. Enjoy the fanatasy world that you live in “DJ”…

  22. “Because he has a view of the commons that removes the essence of commons from our generalized understanding of the commons.”

    I’m not sure if your rhetoric on this issue qualifies as double or triple (or more) talk, but it sure as heck doesn’t make any sense!
    ==================================================
    No, it means you’re an idiot. He’s pointing out your sense that the commons should be open for you to tell others it’s not open to them. Get it?

  23. Comrade Guy, You have only provided DNC talking points, EVERYONE on this site knows it, quit trying to elevate yourself on a cloud (only Obama can do that), when you provide factual data it will be debated, your opinion is quite annoying.

    Don’t be surprised when Obama doesn’t get 220 electoral votes, the math is not that hard to figure out, FL, OH and PA are no longer in the Obama column, they are up for grabs. But keep your “HOPE” alive.

  24. The first year I was able to vote LBJ (light bulb Johnson) nuked the little girl picking flowers.
    That showed me the extreme evil of the dumocrat party
    Anything to get elected.

    Wake up, socialism failed eastern Europe. May it fail the dumocrats too.

  25. “He’s pointing out your sense that the commons should be open for you to tell others it’s not open to them.”

    Now, let’s pretend that THAT makes any sense…lol…when did I ever say that?? Oh yea, it was never…your bad…

    “your opinion is quite annoying.”

    I’m sorry that you find simple facts “annoying” “DJ”…that’s *your* problem, not mine.

    “Don’t be surprised when Obama doesn’t get 220 electoral votes, the math is not that hard to figure out, FL, OH and PA are no longer in the Obama column”

    Since when??

    http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/polls08.htm

    electoral-vote.com/

    http://www.presidentelectionpolls.com/2008/presidential-matchups/barack-obama-vs-john-mccain.html

    http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/general-election/electoral-college-results.html

    McSame has no chance in PA (Dems outnumbers GOP members there by 2-to-1). Obama has more of a chance to pick up OH than he does FL, but he really doesn’t even need either at this point. Wake up “DJ”…this election is being fought on GOP ground, not Democratic ground…get ready for a big disappointment.

    “socialism failed eastern Europe.”

    Too bad they were actually communists…the most successful type of economy the world over is a mixed economy, like the USA & a lot of its allies have right now.

  26. So recent (pre RNC convention) polling data is your “evidence” for an Obama win? You need to get out more. First, the mini-bounce BHO received is gone. Second, his numbers are as high as they are going to get (my opinion) and from here on out they will begin to fall. I base my opinion on the fact that I have received over 100 e mails in the last 4 days from friends of mine (real people not My Space friends) who have changed their mind regarding BHO. The vast majority of them are Independent and usually vote for whoever the polling data has ahead on election day, that way they can “claim” they voted for the winner, it didn’t work out to well most of them in the last two elections, and it appears that the lesson they learned is to, well get EDUCATED, but I digress…
    Third, GOVERNOR Palin has roused the Republican base, pulled numerous independents, and a majority of “single issue” voters as well, polling data will be out soon. PA is back in play by the way, and don’t look now, but MI has a remote chance of going to Republicans this year as well. I am not by any measure “guaranteeing” a McCain-Palin win Comrade Guy, I Am simply pointing all of the intangibles that your side always forget about (we Conservatives like to call them “unintended consequences of Liberal policy”). It is goinig to be a very interesting few weeks!

  27. The national head-to-head polls are meaningless! They were meaningless when they showed the two leading candidates tied or when they showed either one ahead by whatever margin. Surely, you’re aware that we elect the President of the USA through the Electoral College & NOT the popular vote??

    “I base my opinion on the fact that I have received over 100 e mails in the last 4 days from friends of mine (real people not My Space friends) who have changed their mind regarding BHO.”

    That’s real scientific of you “DJ”…let’s BOTH be complete & total liars and I’ll say that I received the same number of e-mails indictaing the opposite…LOL!!

    “pulled numerous independents”

    I’ve seen absolutely NO evidence of this at all. Palin is nothing more than a hard Right GOP member on just about every issue we could discuss. The tops of both tickets will be deciding on where true Independents go, and both candidates have appeal in that area.

    “PA is back in play by the way, and don’t look now, but MI has a remote chance of going to Republicans this year as well.”

    You’re dreaming again…both of these states have gone solidly for Dems since 1992. The idea that a completely weak candidate like Kerry could win them both but Obama can’t is just silly on the face of it.

  28. “The national head-to-head polls are meaningless! They were meaningless when they showed the two leading candidates tied or when they showed either one ahead by whatever margin.”

    And yet that is what YOU USED AS EVIDENCE-agian Comrade Guy, you failed to make a valid point, YOU posted poll results to argue YOUR point. You may choose to call my rebuttal weak, thats okay, regardless, I have received the e-mails, call it what you will. GOVERNOR Palin has changed this race! The most recent poll out today shows McCain ahead by 6-10 points among likely voters-but wait, those are meaningless now right? And you call ME intellectually dishonest! You are a hypocrite sir! You post polls that support your position then call them meaningless! BRAVO MORON!

    As far the Electoral college, I am well aware of how we elect the President- what you seem to fail to be able to grasp is the PEOPLE choose who they vote for, and the Candidate/Ticket with the most votes gets the electoral votes of that state, therefore, when the popular vote of say PENNSYLVANIA is back near the margin of error, that means the tide is turning in that state, this is not rocket science, take the blinders off and look at actual facts vice your skewed opinions.

    I am sure you will disregard this link, for some silly “spin” reason, but here are the latest FACTS;

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/

    Note PA is a TOSS UP state, McCain-Palin are gaining ground there. Also, don’t be surprised to see your Liberal bastion in CA become a battlegound before this election is over, McCain probably will not win it, but it is going to be contested.

    I Know, I know YOU have already decided poles are “meaningless data”…to bad your opinion only matters to you.

  29. “And yet that is what YOU USED AS EVIDENCE”

    Really, where exactly was I citing NATIONAL head-to-head polls for anything?? Oh yea, it was nowhere. All of those webites that I’ve posted refer to state-by-state polls, which would give insight into how the vote in the Electoral College might come out. YOU’RE the one using meaningless national head-to-head polls “DJ”.

    “I have received the e-mails”

    No, you really haven’t…you’re lying, period.

    “those are meaningless now right?”

    No, they’ve been meaningliess all along…try & follow the conversation “DJ”…I know it’s hard for you…

    “when the popular vote of say PENNSYLVANIA is back near the margin of error”

    It isn’t…that’s the point stupid.

    “Note PA is a TOSS UP state”

    PA is a *battleground state* (as it’s been in the last many election cycles), hence their non-commital as to who’s side it’s currently on. PA has been on Obama’s side almost for this entire election cycle & that remains to be the case right now.

    We’ve been over this before…RCP is a Right-leaning site…just look at the vast majority of people who sing their praises:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/about.html

    “Also, don’t be surprised to see your Liberal bastion in CA become a battlegound before this election is over”

    More utter nonsense…keep dreaming…

  30. “Note PA is a TOSS UP state”

    And there is a STRONG possibility it will go to McCain.

    “It isn’t…that’s the point stupid.”

    Do numbers escape you? PA is VERY near the margin of error, hence the REASON it is a toss up, but I can see the truth is starting to scare you Comrade Guy, go send your savior Obama a little contribution now to make yourself feel better…

    “I have received the e-mails” I have, you just don’t like the notion that you cannot control my inbox!

    “…refer to state-by-state polls, which would give insight into how the vote in the Electoral College might come out.”

    So, by your comment am I to deduce that a State by State poll does not reflect the nation?? You can’t really be that dumb can you?

    “…RCP is a Right-leaning site…” Your a liar! LOL

    The site lists polls from MSNBC, polls from CNN and polls from damn near every other credible source, and you call them right wing?? Surely you can do better than that. The site collects poll data, not RIGHT WING or LEFT WING poll data but POLL DATA. You don’t like them because BHO is losing!

  31. “And there is a STRONG possibility it will go to McCain.”

    Only in your dreams “DJ”. The GOP almost always makes a play for PA, since the central portion of the state (where few people live) has a fair amount of “conservatives”. I can tell you that from experience…I lived there for over 4 years. The thing is, as I’ve pointed out before, Dems outnumber GOP members by 2-to-1 in PA, and that is a very, very difficult thing to overcome, even if you peel a few “conservative” Dems off.

    “go send your savior Obama a little contribution now to make yourself feel better”

    I don’t give money to politicians tyvm.

    “by your comment am I to deduce that a State by State poll does not reflect the nation?”

    No, it doesn’t…it reflects how that state (and ONLY that state) may vote, and yes…YOU really are that dumb!

    “and you call them right wing”

    Look at who praises them…David Brooks, Brit Hume (FOX “News”), Michael Barone, Paul Gigot (The WSJ), Rich Karlgaard (Forbes), & Fred Barnes (The Weekly Standard)…the Right-wing! RCP collects polling data and then interprets & presents it in ways that can maximize its impact on “conservative” candidates.

    “You don’t like them because BHO is losing!”

    Again “DJ”…only in your mind is this true…

  32. If you are an evil corporation, how do you legally bribe a politician? Give to the his favorite charity.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/us/politics/19charity.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

    “Gifts to Pet Charities Keep Lawmakers Happy

    “They do not seem the most likely classical music patrons: Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

    “But together, these defense contractors are donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to the symphony orchestra in Johnstown, Pa., underwriting performances of Mozart and Wagner in this struggling former steel town. A defense lobbying firm, the PMA Group, even sprang for a Champagne reception at the symphony’s opera festival last month.

    “Company representatives say they are being generous corporate citizens. But the orchestra is also a beloved charity of Representative John Murtha, Democrat of Pennsylvania, whose Congressional committee hands out lucrative defense contracts, and whose wife, Joyce, is a major booster of the symphony.”

    Further in the article they list Republican’s charities also benefiting from the big hearts of evil capitalism.

  33. I heard the other day that Exxon Mobil reported a record profit of, $13 Billion dollars for the third quarter of 2008. We need to implement a doctrine similar to the Fairness Doctrine for Broadcasters, that will even the playing field for big Oil Producers. Let’s have a Congressional Moratorium on oil production exclusively for Exxon Mobil untill the other oil producers catch up. What ever it takes to even the playing field, we must strive to make everybody equal, even if the economy goes to hell in a hand basket.


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