Dishonest Anti-McCain Ad

What McCain actually said:

Questioner: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for fifty years…

McCain: Maybe a hundred. Make it one hundred. We’ve been in South Korea, we’ve been in Japan for sixty years. We’ve been in South Korea for fifty years or so. That’d be fine with me as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. Then it’s fine with me. I would hope it would be fine with you if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Qaeda is training, recruiting, equipping and motivating people every single day.

What the Democrats want you to believe McCain said:

Questioner: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for fifty years…

McCain: Maybe a hundred. — That’d be fine with me.

The ad created by the Democratic National Committee splices two snippets of McCain’s response together, so all it shows McCain saying is “Maybe a hundred. — That’d be fine with me.” And then it shows footage of American soldiers being blown up by an IED in Iraq. Wow. Talk about taking something out of context. How could one possibly twist somebody’s words into the exact opposite of their intended meaning more blatantly and calculatedly than that? How much more disrespectful could they be to the American soldiers who lost their lives in that incident? Is that what they died for? So their tragic deaths could be shamelessly exploited for political gain in a crudely deceptive smear campaign against an American war hero? I know politics can be dirty, but I’m thoroughly disgusted that the Democrats would stoop so low.

When you point out the dishonesty of the ad, its defenders shrug innocently, like they can’t imagine what’s to be offended about, and insist that the quotes are accurate because McCain literally did say those words. If somebody were to say “I would have no problem killing anybody who went on a shooting spree in an elementary school,” and I quoted them as saying “I would have no problem killing anybody,” would my statement be true? Apparently, by Democrat standards, it would. (At least if the person accused of making that statement was a Republican.)

When someone takes three words out of a sound byte, cuts out the next 26 words, and splices the first three together with the beginning of the next sentence, omitting the remaining 75% of that sentence, can there be any question that the intent is to fabricate a deliberate misrepresentation? Couldn’t one create just about any sound byte one wanted to by finding three word snippets and splicing them together? But, like petulant children caught in a lie, the Democrats insist “Well, he did actually say those words.”

McCain is trying to run a clean campaign. But the Democrat party is already wallowing in the mud and sleaze of dirty, deliberately disingenuous distortions. I can only hope that their lack of integrity and decency backfires, and that independents who might have considered voting Democrat, and even Democrats themselves, will be repelled by the depths to which their party has sunk.


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Published in: on April 30, 2008 at 2:18 pm  Comments (55)  
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  1. You are correct. This was a bad angle to take.

    I would have used the footage of his multiple Sunni/Shia & Iran/Al Quieda mix ups. This would have put the fact that he lacks the knowledge to be President on display. Do you honestly want a leader that unaware of the situation in Iraq? That unaware of the players in the “Central Front in The War Against Violent Extremism?” I know one of the typical talking point excuses for these mix ups has been “anybody could have mixed that up.” Well, this mythical “anybody” is not running for President.

    Unfortunately, this race is about victory not about finding a great leader for our country.

  2. Al-Qaeda is not based in Iraq…they are in Afganistan and Pakistan.

    Sen. McSame will continue the failed policy of GWB in Iraq…whomever the Democrats nominate for President will not. It’s just that simple. The American people will have a clear choice to make this fall.

    “Is that what they died for?”

    I guess you never saw that Rudy ad towards the end of his failed campaign that used WAY more “scary” footage from the Middle East in his ridiculous “Tested. Ready. Now.” message. I swear I thought I was watching a preview for an upcoming documentary before I realized that it was a TV ad.

  3. Mister Guy said:

    “I guess you never saw that Rudy ad towards the end of his failed campaign that used WAY more “scary” footage from the Middle East in his ridiculous “Tested. Ready. Now.” message.”

    Too true.

    The Republican double standard is the most entertaining when backed by the fake outrage displayed here. Even after distorting Obama’s words with such glee just a few days prior.

  4. Also note the use of the term “Democrat party” in the piece. Har har.

    This is one self proclaimed Libertarian that just loves the cliched Republican talking points and will use them shamelessly.

  5. You Democrats are amusing, and not very bright.

    FACT : Dems promised to get us out of Iraq when they were given control of congress. The have failed to do so. There are more troop there now then when the dems took control of congress

    FACT : Hillary and Obama are backpedalling on their earlier promises to get the troops out. They started saying ‘right away’ now they are on ‘staged withdrawl’ and if one of them gets elected, the tune will change again.

    FACT : If Hillary or Obama gets elected, there will still be troops in Iraq at the end of their terms.

    FACT : NotYourDaddy is super-cool!

  6. FACT: Tuco’s insults are not very clever. Yawn inducing, even.

    McCain’s numerous and unbelievable flip-flops (Iraq, Campaign Finance, Roe V. Wade, Falwell, torture, Bush tax cuts) must have caused head-spins for you. But you’ll probably vote for him anyway, crazy preacher endorsements and all.

  7. I’d rather vote for a someone who honestly changes his mind and admits it than someone like Obama who, clearly, cannot change his mind about anything. If, as Obama says, the election is about change and coming together, who better than McCain, who is actually capable of changing his mind, as he’s consistently demonstrated (to the consternation of some), and who is clearly capable of working together with his Democrat colleagues (to the consternation of others)? McCain is much more like the ideal politician that Obama tries to paint himself as than Obama is. Obama has never worked with Republicans, and he’s spewing the same lefty stuff he’s been spewing for years.
    I think if you really want some change and some bipartisanship, and someone who can tell the truth, and who actually tries to be honest, you’d look at John McCain.
    If you want someone who only does the right thing when people are looking, like Obama has done with Reverand Wright, and who can only see his own side, and who has no desire to work with anyone else, you ought to stick with Obama.

  8. Call it what ever you want. McCain flip flopped because the political wind was blowing the other way and his tactic for 2008 is to align himself with Bush. Stay the course for a 3rd Bush term.

    FACT: The guy doesn’t even know the difference between Sunni and Shia!

  9. Wow, the Rush/GOP talking points just keep on coming, eh?

    We would *indeed* be well on our way out of Iraq by now if the President was willing to heed to the will of the people and not block the actions that Congress has tried to make OR if we had more Dems in Congress. We’ll be correcting one (if not both) of these situations this fall I think. :)

    NO ONE thinks that you can withdraw thousands & thousands of troops (and all their equipment) overnight…it would be nice if that was possible, but it isn’t…that’s not backpeddling, that’s acknowledging the facts on the ground…something the GOP has been failing to do for years and years now. Again, I don’t think there are that many people that think that we, unfortunately, won’t have to have troops in Iraq defending our mega-embassy there after the bulk (if not all) of the combat troops are withdrawn.

    “I’d rather vote for a someone who honestly changes his mind and admits it than someone like Obama who, clearly, cannot change his mind about anything.”

    I thought you were talking about GWB there for a second…LOL!

  10. Tuco said:

    “I’d rather vote for a someone who honestly changes his mind and admits it than someone like Obama who, clearly, cannot change his mind about anything.”

    This quote highlights the simplistic terms in which the right must frame their political arguments. We also get to see the philosophical maneuvering they are willing to do in order to justify their choice to others and themselves. As if they would really allow themselves to make a choice. “Hey Ethel, which name gots the R behind it? Mark that one.”

    When it’s a Republican they call them “resolute” or “steadfast.”

    I wonder which branch of the military Tuco’s children are part of.

  11. Mr. Guy said:
    We would *indeed* be well on our way out of Iraq by now if the President was willing to heed to the will of the people and not block the actions that Congress has tried to make OR if we had more Dems in Congress.

    Maybe so Mr. Guy, and the place would degenerate into something that looked a lot like Rwanda. Would you like to see that? We’re there, we will stay and deal with it. Neither Hillary nor Obama will pull the troops out, just watch. As soon as things got hot, they’d be sent right back, and the only think more expensive than keeping the piece in that place would be re-establishing it if you let it fall apart. Hillary and Obama both know this.

    Kenny said:
    “This quote highlights the simplistic terms in which the right must frame their political arguments.”

    Things are actually simple, Kenny, they only get complicated if you are making things up. Right, wrong, good, bad, pretty simple! Trying to explain bad things is complex, like socialized medicine and higher taxes!

    Tuco served in the US Army for 7 years, 4 years of that in Special Operations. Tuco was involved in Operation Just Cause, Operation Desert Shield, and Operation Desert Storm, among other things. Now he’s in private industry. Where did Kenny serve?(serving burgers doesn’t count)

  12. Tuco meticulously typed:

    “Things are actually simple, Kenny, they only get complicated if you are making things up. Right, wrong, good, bad, pretty simple! Trying to explain bad things is complex, like socialized medicine and higher taxes!”

    And that is why you are a Republican, soldier!

    No thoughts on McCain’s ignorance on Iraq? You keep it simple by avoiding the hard questions. Further maneuvering.

    Then you turn it back on me. That’s fair. I’ll play.

    Kenny didn’t serve. Didn’t want to. Kenny views the current use of our military as completely irresponsible. Kenny respects the men and women who serve so much that he would never want them in harm’s way unless completely necessary. Each one is a member of a family that loves them. A loved one is not something you waste. Tuco has a better chance of dying in a lightning strike than terrorist attack. Iraq is bleeding our defenses dry and you know it. Al Qaeda is watching and waiting and planning as we squander our national treasure and military. ‘McCain is going to stay the course.’

    Kenny is glad that you could some home with your health and maintain a job and make a living. Not everyone is so lucky.

    Kenny contributes to the local conservative AM station when they send packages to the troops. I know I could do more for the troops. I should. I also contribute to the cause of Autism.

    Kenny works for a large corporation that pays him a very decent wage for his time.

  13. Kenny says:
    No thoughts on McCain’s ignorance on Iraq? You keep it simple by avoiding the hard questions. Further maneuvering.

    The dude is old and was tortured nearly to death, I expect him to slip up from time to time. I’m neither surprised nor disappointed with this, it happens. I laugh at my dad when he does this. I’m sure his advisors will remind him which guys need to be shot. It’s not maneuvering at all, I simply don’t care if he slips up. That’s simple.

    Kenny does not like the war. I do. I’m happy that we deposed Saddam, I’m happy that we’re holding the ground, I’m happy that things are improving in Iraq. Yes, too bad, some people got hurt and killed. They chose to be there when the signed up. A military contract -*is*- signing your life away. Been there, done that. I don’t feel sorry for any dead or hurt soldiers – they chose this. Looking at the kill ratio we have over there, and from talking to friends that are over there, it is going pretty well. The costs will come down as the fighting trails off and oil production increases, and we’ll recover some of the costs from the oil as well, I’m fine with that. The rate of military innovation over the last few years has been great, we’ll be we’ll prepared for when we and China get together to take care of North Korea! We’ll be in Iraq for 2 or 3 generations, long enough to pacify them and long enough for them to forget why were there, just like we occupied Germany and Japan.

  14. “the place would degenerate into something that looked a lot like Rwanda”

    Can we be honest here for a second? We’re Americans…we care about America first, right? We didn’t give a damn about what happened in the tiny, African country of Rwanda because there were no resources there that we could exploit. We’re not getting the resources (oil) that we thought we’d be getting from Iraq now…so don’t give me this nonsense about how you guys on the Right are going to be crying into your morning coffee over how many people *might* be killed if we pull out of Iraq. I don’t see anyone of you guys crying over the dead Americans that have died in Iraq so far, BTW.

    I love how you guys talk about military operations in the propaganda terms that the military uses for the media…”Operation Just Cause, Operation Desert Shield, and Operation Desert Storm”. Let me translate that for you, you helped invade Panama (against the wishes of the Organization of American States) in order to get America’s buddy Noriega and Kuwait/Iraq after America’s buddy Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait without us bothering to tell him not to ahead of time.

    I’ve been thinking about the angle that McSame was tortured mentally and physically back in Vietnam. Don’t you think that’s had to have a negative impact on his life and his mind? I’m really sorry that he had to go to Vietnam in the first place…let alone get shot down and go thru that special kind of hell, but I’ve been thinking that it might not be such a great idea to have someone in office that might be a tad mentally unstable. I understand that he has a hell of temper…even towards his wife…on occasion. I’m not sure how I feel about that issue…

  15. Mr Guy says:
    Can we be honest here for a second? We’re Americans…we care about America first, right? We didn’t give a damn about what happened in the tiny, African country of Rwanda because there were no resources there that we could exploit.

    You are right, the Democrat administration in charge when the Rwandans were chopping each other up did not care. I can’t say the right cared a lot, either, but personally I’d have been happy to have the US go there and restore some order. There are several more wonderful places in the world we ought to send some troops into. It’s good training! And I don’t cry over people who volunteered to be in Iraq – it was their choice to take the risk. I appreciate the sacrifice, but they knew the risk..

    About McCain and his POW experience and his temper. I think anyone who survived that crap is stronger than someone who did not. Period. Temper? Big deal. I yelled at my last 2 wives, and I’ll yell at the next one as well, I’m sure. What evidence do you have that he’s mentally unstable? I’d worry more about Obama’s cigarette smoking, he’ll probably get lung cancer. Smoking cigarettes, how smart is that? The guy is a genius. Trés gauche! Smoking is very debonair!
    Who do you want going up against the like of Putin?
    Guy who survived 5.5 years of torture, or guy who can’t quit smoking, tough choice there…
    McSame? You sound like one of the loons on DailyKOS!

  16. Nice try…*nobody* cared about Rwanada, period.

    “There are several more wonderful places in the world we ought to send some troops into.”

    The sad part is that I know that you’re serious when you say something like this. News flash…our military is overstretched already…we don’t have anyone else to go and enforce the Pax Americana that you apparently want so bad.

    Putin is a giant putz…anyone can deal with the likes of him…except, of course, Bushy Boy. He’s just managed to antagonize him into starting another Cold War maybe.

    Yea, McSame…as in same as Bush…4 more years of Bush…no thanx there…

  17. Tuco said:

    “I’m sure his advisors will remind him which guys need to be shot. It’s not maneuvering at all, I simply don’t care if he slips up. That’s simple.”

    So security isn’t really an issue for you. You are willing to hand our country over to a mistaken old man. Wow. Further proof that Republicans only care about winning everything else is just talk. Empty talk.

    Tuco also said:

    “Yes, too bad, some people got hurt and killed. They chose to be there when the signed up. A military contract -*is*- signing your life away. Been there, done that. I don’t feel sorry for any dead or hurt soldiers – they chose this.”

    Wow. That’s some cold shit right there. No compassion for the injured or fallen. Not to mention what the Iraqi people have been through. Human life means so very little to the right wing.

    Again, lightning is a greater threat to you than terrorism.

  18. The death of Sgt. Merlin German was reported today by the AP.

    Sgt. German “endured more than 40 surgeries, spent 17 months in a hospital and had to learn to walk again.”

    Did he choose to serve his country? Or did he choose “40 surgeries, spent 17 months in a hospital?”

    People like Tuco ran the “showers” at Auschwitz and saw nothing wrong with it.

  19. Link to Sgt. Merlin’s site: http://www.merlinsmiracles.com/

  20. Kenny says:
    People like Tuco ran the “showers” at Auschwitz and saw nothing wrong with it.

    Kenny, really classy and adult. Sgt Merlin made his own choices. He knew the risks. I respect that. I’m sure he’d rather have respect than pity, all the soldiers I worked with felt that way.
    Kenny, people like me destroyed the Third Reich and liberated Auschwitz, and we’re happy to delete people like Saddam Hussein who seek to emulate people like Hitler.
    People like me liberate, people like Kenny let tyrants thrive, because dealing with them is costly.
    People like Kenny helped create Auschwitz because they would not confront Hitler.
    Kenny, be happy there are people like me to keep people like you safe. Please step out of the way while the men go kill off the little Hitlers of the world, we would not want you to get any gore on your or to get your hair messed up. And don’t feel sorry for us, we don’t need your pity, it’s not worth anything.

  21. “People like Tuco ran the ‘showers’ at Auschwitz and saw nothing wrong with it.”

    Yanno, that’s probably over the line IMO. However, the idea that Saddam was like Hitler is just another silly Bush talking point.

    “People like Kenny helped create Auschwitz because they would not confront Hitler.”

    I don’t think that anyone on the Left in this country is trying to act like Neville Chamberlain…that’s just yet *another* GOP talking point, and he was a member of the Conservative Party in the UK BTW. ;)

  22. Nice try, Tuco. It’s sycophants like you who march behind tyrants without question or regard for human life.

    Do not mistake my respect for pity. Odd that a self proclaimed vet would care so little for his fellow soldiers. That is if you really are a vet.

    If you compare Hitler’s actions did to what Bush is doing in Iraq and the lead up to the invasion, you’ll see the similarities. Both used fear and lies to manipulate their countries into unnecessary military actions. Both imprisoned, tortured and slaughtered innocent citizens. I stand by the comparison. “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

    Invading unarmed sovereign nations does nothing for our security.

  23. The statement “Maybe a hundred. — That’d be fine with me.” is *exactly* what he said. The addition or inclusion of a few caveats does not make it any different or untrue. He *would* be okay maintaining a military presence there indefinitely. Or just 100 years. IF certain conditions were met.

    For the advertisement to imply that people would be dying the entire time is pure conjecture, however.

    I would point out that McCain has served in the armed forces as well as having been a POW. In this, one would figure he has seen first-hand how tenacious, cruel and underhanded our enemies can be.

    Given this I am amazed that he could believe that Americans would not be “injured or harmed or wounded or killed” when stationed within “a very volatile part of the world where Al Qaeda is training, recruiting, equipping and motivating people every single day”

  24. Visitor, we have had troops stationed in Germany and Japan ever since WWII. Those were both very volatile parts of the world at the time, but I don’t see American soldiers getting killed every day there. That’s the kind of presence McCain was talking about when he referred to 100 years. And that was very obvious from the actual quote. The ad is a vicious, smear, and a deliberate misrepresentation. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

  25. I’ve been offline for a couple of days. Interesting discussion.

    Kenny, when you first started visiting this blog, you seemed so rational. What happened?

    Mr. Guy, I wouldn’t assume McCain is unstable because of his wartime experiences. Perhaps what didn’t kill him made him stronger…

    Tuco, thank you for your military service.

  26. The problem for McSame though is that this isn’t WWII that we’re fighting now. If it were, it’d be over by now.

  27. NotYourDaddy said:

    “Kenny, when you first started visiting this blog, you seemed so rational. What happened?”

    You want to elect a senile confused old man to run our country and you question my rationality? Har har.

    Yesterday McCain said:

    “My friends, I will have an energy policy which will eliminate our dependence on oil from Middle East that will then prevent us from having ever to send our young men and women into conflict again in the Middle East.”

    Yikes. The mad scramble to make excuses for this remark started immediately. His defenders claim that he was talking about the “other” gulf war. Yeah right.

    McCain is not fit to be President. “To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.”

  28. Not Your Daddy said:

    “Visitor, we have had troops stationed in Germany and Japan ever since WWII. Those were both very volatile parts of the world at the time, but I don’t see American soldiers getting killed every day there. That’s the kind of presence McCain was talking about when he referred to 100 years.”

    Correction: McCain never said “every day” in that phrase. In fact, the phrase “every day” didn’t exist on this page until YOU added it. You shouldn’t really add words to the original context. :)

  29. Wigglesworth, I wasn’t quoting him, I was paraphrasing in response to Visitor’s comments. (Had I been quoting, I would have indicated that by using quotation marks.) If I remove the offending phrase, and simply state that I don’t see American soldiers getting killed in Germany and Japan, does that make my statement any more or less accurate or pertinent?

  30. I know you weren’t quoting him. But you were adding the extra qualifying condition “every day” to his statement. Based solely on what he said, a fatal helicopter crash once a year in a now peaceful country where we continue to maintain forces would mean a withdrawal of troops. Correct?

  31. You’re obviously stretching to get to some point, but I can’t see what it is. McCain said nothing about the conditions for withdrawing troops. You’re trying to exprapolate that from what he said about conditions for maintining a military presence there. But I cannot see a logical derivation from one to the other. If there is one, please spell it out for me.

  32. Kenny said:

    Nice try, Tuco. It’s sycophants like you who march behind tyrants without question or regard for human life.

    Tuco replies : Wow, sycophant, that’s a big word! I have regard for decent humans, and I’m happy to shoot indecent ones. It’s a tough job, but someone has to do it. Be happy they will never call on you!

    Do not mistake my respect for pity. Odd that a self proclaimed vet would care so little for his fellow soldiers. That is if you really are a vet.

    Tuco replies : Thanks for the respect! I respect you to. I’m sure you’d do a fine job flipping a burger for me, even though you’d probably spit on it if I was not watching.

    If you compare Hitler’s actions did to what Bush is doing in Iraq and the lead up to the invasion, you’ll see the similarities. Both used fear and lies to manipulate their countries into unnecessary military actions. Both imprisoned, tortured and slaughtered innocent citizens. I stand by the comparison. “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

    Tuco replies : Hmm, let’s see, Hitler invaded his neighbors, so did Saddam (Iran, Kuwait). Saddam also funded terrorism in other countries, this is a fact – he paid the families of suicide bombers who blew themselves up in Israel. Saddam also made a lot of money from the ineffective UN oil-for-food program. He tortured and murdered many of his own citizens (sorry, but the occasional abuses in the US are NOTHING like what was going on in Iraq). Just I said, Saddam is a little Hitler. I’m happy whenever the US takes people like that out, we ought to do it more often. Bush’s only mistake in invading Iraq was picking the reason, the WMD issue. He should have just stuck to the more easily proven truths: Oil for food was a joke, Saddam tortured his own people and funded terrorism. That’s plenty of reason to go take care of him, because I don’t like torture and terrorism. I know you don’t feel that way and would not have minded ‘business as usual’ in Iraq, but stuff like that bothers some people.

    Invading unarmed sovereign nations does nothing for our security.

    Tuco replies : What unarmed sovereign nation did we invade? Iraq? It was quite well armed. We are armed a lot better though, which is why we pretty much destroyed their ability to fight in a matter of days. Now they resort to small ambushes and blowing up their own people. I guess they are still armed, so I guess we ought to keep shooting them until they aren’t.

  33. MisterGuy said:
    The problem for McSame though is that this isn’t WWII that we’re fighting now. If it were, it’d be over by now.

    Tuco Says: Well, yes, if it were WWII we’d have killed significantly more of the population of Iraq than we have and there would be far fewer resisters left. If resistance was encountered in WWII they would take out the block or town instead of going door-to-door like the police and trying to find the one bad apple. Luckily we’re a little more civilized than we used to be, and the technology is better, so we don’t have near the collateral damage. I think you are probably right, the fighting would have been done had this been WWII, but the game has changed. It will take a little longer to play, but there will be a far fewer casualties.

  34. NYD said : Tuco, thank you for your military service.

    Tuco says : You are welcome, NYD, any time. You are welcome, too, Kenny.

  35. “Hitler invaded his neighbors, so did Saddam (Iran, Kuwait)”

    Except that we *supported* him when he invaded Iran, and we did nothing to stop him (even though there were high-level meetings between the USA and Iraq) before he invaded Kuwait.

    “Saddam also made a lot of money from the ineffective UN oil-for-food program. He tortured and murdered many of his own citizens (sorry, but the occasional abuses in the US are NOTHING like what was going on in Iraq).”

    So, we invaded him because he was making money off of oil…lol… Again, he did horrible things to his own people *with our approval*…he was a our close, personal buddy for decades yanno.

    “I don’t like torture”

    It’s again odd how you apparently give your buddy GWB a pass on that one too.

    “so I guess we ought to keep shooting them until they aren’t.”

    Wow, this is mindless drivel…thank goodness you’re not in the military anymore.

    “if it were WWII we’d have killed significantly more of the population of Iraq”

    Well gee whiz, we’ve killed about 4% of the Iraqi popluation so far versus about 5% of the Axis power’s population during WWII…quite an “improvement” (not in my book) & the killings are still going on to this day. BTW, most of the people that get killed in wars are civilians, period.

  36. Tuco said: Wow, sycophant, that’s a big word! I have regard for decent humans, and I’m happy to shoot indecent ones. It’s a tough job, but someone has to do it. Be happy they will never call on you!

    Kenny said:
    Yes, sycophant is a big word. Did you look it up? My government is never going to tell me to kill anyone; be it a prison camp gas chamber or a residential neighborhood in Baghdad. I do not trust my government enough to murder for it. Clearly, you do.

    Tuco said: Thanks for the respect! I respect you to. I’m sure you’d do a fine job flipping a burger for me, even though you’d probably spit on it if I was not watching.

    Kenny said:
    There you go with your burger flipping obsession. This must be the “private sector” that your military training prepared you for since you seem to be able to relate to little else.

    Tuco said: Hmm, let’s see, Hitler invaded his neighbors, so did Saddam (Iran, Kuwait). Saddam also funded terrorism in other countries, this is a fact – he paid the families of suicide bombers who blew themselves up in Israel. Saddam also made a lot of money from the ineffective UN oil-for-food program. He tortured and murdered many of his own citizens (sorry, but the occasional abuses in the US are NOTHING like what was going on in Iraq). Just I said, Saddam is a little Hitler. I’m happy whenever the US takes people like that out, we ought to do it more often. Bush’s only mistake in invading Iraq was picking the reason, the WMD issue. He should have just stuck to the more easily proven truths: Oil for food was a joke, Saddam tortured his own people and funded terrorism. That’s plenty of reason to go take care of him, because I don’t like torture and terrorism. I know you don’t feel that way and would not have minded ‘business as usual’ in Iraq, but stuff like that bothers some people.

    Kenny said:
    Such noble reasons! If this stance was at all consistent, it might be convincing. Your beloved President literally kisses the hand of the Saudi King/Dictator every chance he gets. You know, where most of the 911 hijackers came from. They love their public executions in Saudi Arabia too.

    So pretending to be concerned about nasty dictators is phony right wing rhetoric of the highest order.

    So Bush invades and takes over Saddam’s operations. We invade and they get torture, terrorism, stolen oil revenues, destroyed infrastructure, etc. What changed?

    Bush’s only mistake? Ha ha! Hilarious.

    Tuco said: What unarmed sovereign nation did we invade? Iraq? It was quite well armed.

    Kenny said:
    Quite well armed? Not really. With some “invisible magic” weapons, perhaps? Or do you buy into the “they are in Syria” Hannity talking point/conspiracy theory? The UN inspectors that had to flee Iraq before the invasion said there was nothing and time has proven them to be correct. The UN Sanctions designed to keep Saddam form acquiring WMD seems to have worked since nothing was found.

  37. Mister Guy said:
    Well gee whiz, we’ve killed about 4% of the Iraqi popluation so far

    Tuco says : Sources? I think you are pretty far off, we have not killed 1 million Iraqis. Even if you count the number killed by other Iraqis it is a lot lower than that. An Mister Guy, at ground level war is -*precisely*- shooting the other guys until they stop. I can see you are a real genius. Do you and Kenny flip burgers together?

    Kenny said : My government is never going to tell me to kill anyone.

    Tuco says : Kenny, you live here and pay taxes, you have participated in killing, you are paying for it. Feel free to move to Mexico and not fund the war effort anymore!

    Kenny said : There you go with your burger flipping obsession. This must be the “private sector” that your military training prepared you for since you seem to be able to relate to little else.

    Tuco says : Luckily I don’t make a living with the skills I learned in the Army, I make a living with skills I taught myself. I did have a good education at a nice liberal arts college, but sadly little of what I learned there was of much use so I had to learn to do something else.

    Kenny said : You know, where most of the 911 hijackers came from. They love their public executions in Saudi Arabia too.

    Tuco says : The 9/11 hijackers did come from Saudi Arabia, that is true, but they were not agents of the Saudi government. You know, that, right? We used to have public executions in this country, now we do them privately. Did you have a point? I didn’t think so.

    Kenny said : Quite well armed? Not really. With some “invisible magic” weapons, perhaps? Or do you buy into the “they are in Syria” Hannity talking point/conspiracy theory? The UN inspectors that had to flee Iraq before the invasion said there was nothing and time has proven them to be correct. The UN Sanctions designed to keep Saddam form acquiring WMD seems to have worked since nothing was found.

    Tuco says : Did I say anything about WMD? I guess the foam from your mouth has gotten into your eyes. I don’t care about WMD. They had plenty of other weapons, they -*did*- shoot back, after all. And the sooner they stop shooting at us (and their own people, which seem to be their preferred targets) the sooner we’ll leave.

  38. Tuco says : Kenny, you live here and pay taxes, you have participated in killing, you are paying for it. Feel free to move to Mexico and not fund the war effort anymore!

    Kenny said:
    I am paying for it? Are you aware of how the occupation is being funded? How much have you payed into this ‘war fund’?

    Tuco said: The 9/11 hijackers did come from Saudi Arabia, that is true, but they were not agents of the Saudi government. You know, that, right? We used to have public executions in this country, now we do them privately. Did you have a point? I didn’t think so.

    Kenny said:
    Not agents of the Saudi government? Really? Did your beloved President find this out when he kissed the ring of their opressive and violent dictator? NONE of the hijackers were from Iraq. We used to burn witches too, but we managed to progress past that. We used to enslave Africans. We used to keep women form voting.

    Tuco says : Did I say anything about WMD?

    Kenny said:
    Yes you did. You criticized your beloved President for “picking the reason” of WMD for invading Iraq. You prefer the other lies that were offered once the WMD claims were debunked.

  39. Gee, I thought the ground war was over…with the whole “Mission Accomplished” and all. There were roughly 24 million Iraqis before the war started and yes…roughly a million people killed so far in all the violence that has resulted from that pointless invasion (sure, the numbers are all over the place still, but a million is still kind of low IMO). There were roughly 240 million people in all the Axis nations combined before WWII and roughly 12 million killed when it was all over.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Casualties_by_country

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003

    http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html

    Public or private, I think that state executions are wrong, period.

    “And the sooner they stop shooting at us (and their own people, which seem to be their preferred targets) the sooner we’ll leave.”

    I guess that means never, or until we get a Democrat in the White House next year…lol…

  40. Mister Guy said: roughly a million people killed so far in all the violence that has resulted from that pointless invasion (sure, the numbers are all over the place still, but a million is still kind of low IMO).

    Tuco Says : Sorry Mister Guy, but your opinion is not a source

    Mister Guy said : I guess that means never, or until we get a Democrat in the White House next year…lol…

    Tuco Says : No, when they get tired of getting killed. They won’t stop because there is a Democrat in the white house, and there will still be troops there after the failure of the democratic administration should we be unfortunate enough to get one! If Clinton or Obama gets elected they may try to withdraw troops, but they will stop if things heat up. The worst blunder the US could make is to leave and the place falls apart into chaos, if that happens we’ll be back there, because the UN certainly won’t fix anything. The safest course is to stay for a long ass time and keep on nation building. When McCain says this, it is the truth, and it is what will actually happen. Clinton and Obama know that this is the necessary course, so they are either fools or liars when they deny this.

  41. As per usual with you guys, the facts don’t matter…lol…nice…

    You, of course, keep assuming that basically the entire population of Iraq is against us, which is why I said earlier that it’s a good thing that you’re not in the military anymore. What would wiping out 20-some million people be called exactly, eh? Watch and learn you fool…

  42. I think a lot more Iraqis are for us than against us, Mr. Guy. The ones that are against us are the ones that blow up little Iraqi kids… Don’t root for those guys too hard! Those people want us to leave so they could go back to oppressing their own people, I guess they are the opposite of Freedom Fighters.

  43. You don’t think that their are any foreign fighters in the mix over there?? You know, the ones that we let stroll right in when we *never* secured the Iraqi borders…give me a break… Your view of the situation is waaaay too simple, which is exactly why I’m glad that you’re not in the military anymore.

  44. Please show me where I say there were not foreign fighters. Of course there are. Another reason to stay, we must do what we can to help Iraq protect itself from them. No border can be perfectly protected, not even the US border. I’m perfectly happy to have American troops shoot foreign terrorists in Iraq. All the people I know who are over there are happy to be shooting them as well.

    Your mistake is your belief that there is a way to leave before the situation is stabilized. You believe the lie that Clinton and Obama are telling you about pulling out troops. They will pull out a few, then when it heats up they will stop. Just wait and see. The worst possible thing that could happen is a withdraw and then chaos, the politicians know this is not a viable option. I’d rather vote for McCain, who is telling us this, then for Obama or Clinton, who are both well aware of this and yet are telling you something different. Open your eyes, dude.

  45. We didn’t even make a real attempt to secure the Iraqi border…that’s the point. We cannot solve their own civil war any more than someone else could have solved ours all those years ago. We should have never invaded in the first place, most of the Iraqis have wanted us to leave for quite some time now, and there’s basically nothing else that we can do for Iraq at this point. Whether they sink or swim (and believe me…the VAST majority of American’s will care very little if Iraq goes under after we leave) is up to them…not us…watch and learn…

  46. ahhh, the never-ending thread…
    You are wrong, we deployed troops at checkpoints and in strategic parts of the border. The border is thousands of miles long, and has always been porous. I read an excellent article in SOF about this porosity, a small group with the SOF journalist went into Iran and came back, no problem. I’m sure the border is patrolled, but it is not like there will ever be a fence. You will always be able to cross that border, you will never be able to secure it, therefore focus your resources on things you can fix, like making neighborhoods less violent and trying to restore something that looks like law and order..
    There is a lot we can do for Iraq, and, like it or not, we’re responsible for making sure things go right from here on out. We broke it, we bought it. That we never should have gone is not an excuse to abandon it now. Would you dump a kid you had with a woman you regretted sleeping with, or would you assume some responsibility for raising them? Of course you’d assume some responsibility, you are civilized. It’s the same deal here. Eventually they will be able to take care of themselves in some reasonable way (no, another dictatorship isn’t reasonable), but until that time they are our kid and we get to raise them.

  47. Ah, more inconvenient facts, again:

    http://www2.nysun.com/foreign/on-iraqs-border-with-iran-security-is-lax/

    Iraq is not America’s red-headed step-child…lol…they are a sovereign nation. As long as we continue to treat them like children, they will never learn to take care of themselves like adults. It’s waaaay past time to cut the cord. It’s amazing how simple your mind works.

    There are people (like you) that actually read Soldier of Fortune magazine…unbelievable…that says it all right there…

  48. Mister Guy, I bought SOF for my stepmother, who pretty much epitomizes liberalism. Sadly, after I got it for her, she changed her mind, but I read it and it is interesting.
    Your article does not disagree with anything I said, did you even read what I wrote?
    So much for the myth of the ‘open-minded’ liberal! I also listen to NPR. So maybe ‘people like me’ are a lot more than ‘people like you’ than you’d like to admit. I bet you have never read SOF, one of your buddies probably said it was bad and you nodded your head in group-think agreement. You are easily programmed!!
    “People like you”, ok, nice, sounds like Perot saying ‘you people’.

  49. No, I haven’t read Soldier of Fortune magazine…I see no need to be dreaming of being a mercenary (read that as hired thug/killer) someday.

  50. Exactly, you believe the stereotype, and aren’t curious enough to actually find out for yourself what the magazine is really about. A closed mind!
    I won’t waste my time trying to teach you anything, you already know everything you are interested in knowing and aren’t interested in learning anything that might challenge your beliefs.

  51. Kettle…meet pot…pot…kettle…lol…

    What do you think a Soldier of Fortune is?? Oh, OK, I’ll use the PC-term and call them “Professional Adventurers” instead of mercenaries…sure…that sounds even better eh?

  52. ‘Don’t judge a book by it’s cover’
    Are you sure you are a liberal, Mr. Guy? you are closed-minded, stereotype people, and ill-informed. Don’t worry, I won’t tell your liberal friends!

  53. You really are too much…lol…

    Are you sure *you’ve* actually read Soldier of Fortune magazine…you know…the magazine that’s motto is “The Journal of Professional Adventurers”? The magazine that is pro-military (but, of course, against female combat roles in the armed services), pro-“strong U.S. defense” (whatever the hell that means), pro-police, pro-veteran, and pro-gun? The magazine with a recent editorial on Iraq from non-other than Ollie North?! No thanx…I read enough gun/violence/war glorification from Right-wing tyum.

  54. Yep, I was just reading it this morning. I read it, thus have some idea of its contents, and you’ve not, aside from what you may have just looked up on the web. Therefore have an opinion worth what?
    Get back to me when you learn to read, are capable of comprehending what you’ve read, and grown an open mind!

  55. Oh, you mean the article where he says that the target of the media in Iraq became the troops, where he attacks John Kerry (a fellow combat vetran), where he mentions the (fictitious) “extrordinary gains” that have been made recently in Iraq, where he criticizes the Dems running for President that want to put an end to the war, and where he says that our soliders “must finish the job in Iraq”? That load of Right-wing drivel…did YOU actually read it??


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