It baffles me why so many Americans readily accept that, in any conflict with foreign interests, America must be at fault. To these people, all of our enemies are actually our victims, and are justified in hating us because America’s a big bully. They seem to believe the rest of the world is full of peaceful, good-natured people and, if the terrorists want to destroy us, it must be because we’ve done them wrong. If those who have declared us their enemies commit inconceivably vicious acts of barbaric violence, it’s only out of desperation because we have somehow driven them to it.
Those who want to believe in our culpability insist that the attacks on (and prior to) 9/11 were only retribution for our “meddling” in the Middle East. The flaw in that reasoning is that, if you look at the history of the Islamic extremists, they do not only attack those who “interfere” with them. They have an impressive track record, throughout the world, of ruthlessly attacking and oppressing those who don’t buy into their ideology. But it’s convenient to ignore that historical perspective if it runs counter to one’s agenda. On the other hand, perhaps all the nations and peoples against whom they’ve committed brutal acts of violence and terrorism are somehow also responsible, and only the terrorists are victims.
The people whose agenda it suits to blame America refuse to consider the possibility that the terrorists might actually hate us for the reasons they claim to hate us. — Because we are the great Satan, and they see our culture as an abomination to Allah. Their law requires victims of rape to be stoned and beaten. They torture and execute homosexuals. They arrest and imprison women for showing their faces, arms, or ankles in public, or for talking to any man to whom they are not related. They execute people for speaking out against their government. In a culture where these affronts to human liberty are strictly enforced by law, why is it so hard to conceive that they find our culture, with all the freedoms we cherish, to be an abomination? Until and unless we’re willing to give up the inalienable rights that we hold to be self-evident, and submit to Shari’a, we will continue to offend.
Sometimes I wonder if the people who hold on so tightly to these romantic notions of our enemies have ever been outside of this country. They seem to assume the rest of the world enjoys the same fundamental rights and freedoms we take for granted here. They seem to assume that everything bad they hear about our enemies is just political rhetoric, and that those governments are really no worse than ours. (In fact, they seem to assume ours is the worst.) This is not just naivete, but willfull naivete.
I’d like to ask those people who really think we’re the bad guys the following questions.
- Do you believe they don’t really treat women as property, and punish them for crimes committed against them, or do you believe that’s ok?
- Do you believe they don’t really torture and kill homosexuals for offending Allah, or do you believe that’s ok?
- Do you believe they don’t really execute people for being critical of their government, or do you believe that’s ok?
- Do you believe they don’t really fund and train terrorists to blow up international civilian targets, or do you believe that’s ok?
I’m just curious, do you not believe these things really happen, or do you not believe they’re evil? Or do you believe that they happen, and that they’re evil, but that we are somehow worse than they are?
There really are bad guys out there in the world. And the Jihadists really are bad guys. They are not innocent victims of America’s rapacious hegemony. Nevertheless, people will believe what they want to believe. But why they want to believe that America is always the villain is truly an enigma to me.
Government is Not Your Daddy 
“if you look at the history of the Islamic extremists, they do not only attack those who ‘interfere’ with them.”
Where’s the evidence of that? Unfortunately, we also have gotten back into the torture business. Also, have we been treating homosexuals fairly all these years in America? There really are sometimes no clear lines of totally right and totally wrong in world affairs.
This whole “they hate us because we’re free” thing falls flat on it’s face when you actually listen to what people in the region have to say….and I’m not talking about the extremists either. Do you not think that we’ve tried to enforce our way of living, with free markets and the like, in Iraq?
Yea, I’ve been outside this country BTW…there’s a whole different world out there if you open your eyes to it. Like I’ve said before, hegemony is not sustainable. If it were, we’d all be speaking Latin or Greek right now.
“Where’s the evidence of that?”
Huh? Don’t you read the news? Are you really unaware of the Islamic terrorist activity in Europe and throughout the world over the last decade or more? Talk about willful naivete…
Here’s a PBS Frontline article that traces the terrorist attacks from just one branch of the international network. (You don’t think PBS is a right-wing propaganda machine, do you?)
“Also, have we been treating homosexuals fairly all these years in America?”
Do you really fail to see any difference between not granting homosexuals the right to marry each other and publicly executing them?
I don’t condone terrorists acts of any kind, but probably the only entity that has messed with the Middle East more than the USA is Europe. They are also some of our strongest allies. The Europeans drew most of the lines that divide the various countries in the Middle East and suppressed it’s citizenry for a looong time. There’s a difference between understanding where terrorism comes from and supporting it.
I don’t see the difference in denying homosexuals human rights. We can’t throw stones from a glass house.
You DON’T SEE THE DIFFERENCE?? — Between not granting someone the right to get married and publicly executing them?
I’m not even sure “right” is the appropriate word here. I’ve never really thought of marriage as one of those fundamental human rights for which it would be worth sacrificing one’s life. As it happens, I am married. But if, for some reason, I were not eligible to be legally married, I’m sure we would still live together in a permanent committed relationship, just as we do today. There are no laws in this country preventing homosexuals from living together, or from engaging in any legal activity or pursuit of happiness in which anybody else might lawfully engage.
To say that homosexuals are denied human rights in this country takes hyperbole to the limits of absurdity. I think you need a reality check.
The Iranian wacko-leader tries to tell us that they have no gays in his country, and we have gays here that are beated, murdered, and denied the right to be treated equally like everyone else (be married, adopt, have a job, get a house/apartment, etc.). Is there a difference…sure…does it matter much if you happen to the gay person…I don’t think so (and I don’t happen to be an expert on the matter since I’m not gay). Don’t take my word for it though…ask a homosexual that you know if they feel like they have been treated the same as everyone else in this country. I think you need to check your biases.
I have known plenty of gay couples who have never been beaten, murdered, denied a job, or refused an apartment. In fact, none of the homosexuals I’ve ever known has been beaten or murdered, and they’re all gainfully employed and live together openly in their apartments or houses. I think you need to meet some actual gay people, instead of just guessing…
“Is there a difference…sure…does it matter much if you happen to the gay person…I don’t think so”
I do think so. And I think if you ask any gay person, they would prefer to not get legally married than to get publicly executed. Ask a few, and see for yourself.
“(and I don’t happen to be an expert on the matter since I’m not gay). Don’t take my word for it though.”
Whose word am I to take, if not yours? (But whether you are or not is your business, not mine.)
In any case, this homosexual tangent is a red herring. That’s not the salient issue here, but merely one example of the heinous lack of regard for human rights on the part of our enemies. And, though some indivuduals in this country may harbor prejudices, we have no laws against homosexuality. That’s a huge difference right there.
How’s this: They’re going to behead a woman who is supposed to be able to render men impotent? Shit, Britney can do that to me. Witchcraft? Nah.
The real reason they are going to kill her is that they are ignorant gutless impotent reetards. Fuck muhammed and his mongrel law.
And there’s another rotten story in the news about the useless scumsuckers that run Saudi Arabia: Apparently they blackmailed the British government into not pursuing a case concerning the Saudis and an illegal arms deal, they claimed they wouldn’t have England’s back if they gained intel about the terrorists if they continued the case. The Saudis (our ally, remember) now think they own the United Kingdom’s legal system. I figure they’ll do that here, next.
Keep buying Saudi oil and guarantee this kind of behavior.
I hate to say it, Nacho, but we actually agree on most of the points you made in your OP.
Pay attention, however to the long and egregious history of our corporations basically fucking places up with impunity and walking out the door when the natural resources dry up. Union Carbide, Bhopal is a fine example. The only reason that is documented so well is the sudden loss of life. That might be ONE of the reasons they hate us. Maybe.
About the gay thing- My good friend David had a gay brother thrown through a plate glass window 15 years ago or so…he bled to death before he made it to the hospital. And then there’s that kid who was killed and hung on a fence up there in Montana, or wherever….
Our form of government is the best ever created. Or was, until the Neocons and the L’idiot had their way with it.
But we as a people aren’t a whole lot more cognizant or charitable than anyone else out there, and I think it’s a mistake to believe we are. There are a lot of Fundamentalists in this country would prescribe execution for homos and “N-words” if they had the power….. Oh, wait – they used lynch them folks right down in Alabama….And, as “They hate us for our freedom” becomes “They hate us for being Christians…” we’ll be stringing Muslims up, too. Mark my words.
“I have known plenty of gay couples who have never been beaten, murdered, denied a job, or refused an apartment. In fact, none of the homosexuals I’ve ever known has been beaten or murdered, and they’re all gainfully employed and live together openly in their apartments or houses.”
Now who needs to read the news more carefully…lol…ever hear of Matthew Shepard, or maybe any of this:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1448421
http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/discrim/32854prs20071105.html
Click to access enda_20070917.pdf
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/319450_beaten12ww.html
You’re the one that brought up this “red herring” in the first place, and BTW…America doesn’t suck either. :)
Mr. Guy, as I noted, there are individuals in this country who harbor prejudice against homosexuals. But anybody who harrasses or commits violence against them is prosecuted and punished, because that is a violation of our law. In Islamic countries, homosexuality is a violation of the law, and the government not only condones their persecution, but the government carries it out. Our laws protect homosexuals. Their laws execute them. Do you really not see a difference?
If an employer in Saudi Arabia were to fire a woman for being a lesbian, do you suppose they’d be sued by the Saudi version of the ALCU? No. The woman would be arrested, beaten, and executed. You keep claiming there is no difference. If you were a homosexual, where would you rather live?
No, there are entire *institutions* that discriminate against homosexuals in this country, period. They deny them their human rights like all other people. America is not perfect, and we have no right to go around the world telling others how to run their own countries. Whether we do business with them or ally ourselves with them is another question entirely.
“If you were a homosexual, where would you rather live?”
I dunno…maybe Canada.
“No, there are entire *institutions* that discriminate against homosexuals in this country, period. They deny them their human rights like all other people.”
All right. I’ll bite. What American institutions deny “human rights” to homosexuals?
OK then, let’s see…the military, states that don’t allow them to adopt or marry, or companies that fire or refuse to hire individuals that are homosexuals…all of them legally discriminate, which I guess might be OK with you.
It’s kind of sweet how little you actually know.
Just because “we” are American does not make us wrong. Just because “they” believe things different than us does nto make them wrong.
Hmm, I’ve just broken the world into US and THEM, just like you did. Maybe that is the problem more than anything when people can’t live with people being different.
Mr. Guy, perhaps you and I have a different definition of “human rights.” The last I heard, the military is not allowed to discriminate. Though I’m in favor of civil unions, I think many see marriage as a religious sacrament, and I don’t believe the government has any business legislating religion.
Richard, I have no problem living with people who are different. Personally, I enjoy diversity. It’s the Jihadists who feel the need to destroy people who believe and behave differently than they do. If you’re cool with that, whatever, but that’s where I draw the line.
If marriage is a religious sacrament, and if by principle of the separation of church and state the government has no business passing laws that support or impede the free exercise of religion, then why do you need the consent of a Judge to get a divorce? Why do our income tax returns charge you different taxes depending on whether you are married or not?
Face it, government has been legislating religion for a very long time now.
The military is still throwing people out because they are homosexual…even people that we need to fight overseas (read the above links for an example). Marriage is a contract…separate but equal isn’t going to work in the long run with civil unions. I’m personally struck by how much in common our Religious Right over here and the religious extremists over there have in common.
Oh boy, I just did a post about getting things in proportion and then I read this gay red herring stuff. I’m gay but all this “gay rights” stuff is like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic compared with Islamic Fascism which is out to destroy the whole of Wetsern civilization.
The fundamental reason we are stuck with a Jihad or Holy War that we don’t want is the intrinsic historical conflict engrained in our culture versus that of the Islamo-fascists.
Our forefathers introduced to the world the completely novel concept of complete freedom of religion in public life and society. Pursuit of that ideal and flight from religious prosecution is what brought the pilgrims to this land. (Granted that for the first 200 years we simply tried to implement our own brand of religious intolerance. But we learned.) When we effected our revolution and founded a new nation and constitution based upon individual rights, we made religious freedom a key ingredient of that new social structure. (Granted also that there was no protection against societal pressure or intolerance – that is an issue of competing protected rights.) In our system the individual is free to practice religion or not and free to practice whichever religion or sect without threat of penal reprisal.
This concept is anathema to religious iconoclasts such as the adherents of Shari-a. Their core beliefs demand intolerance of all non-true believers and they demand intolerance all the way to death. There is no room for negotiation. If not Muslim vs. Christian, it is Muslim vs. Jew. If not Muslim vs. Jew, it is Muslim vs. Muslim (Wahabee vs Sunni, Sunni vs Shii.)
Centuries of their history depict nothing but slaughter in the name of each particular sect’s version of Allah.
Our core values and psyches are irreconcilably different. And their’s involve intolerance. For two hundred years this has been a ticking time bomb.
We haven’t made matters any better by being successful. (I don’t care if you call that “exploitation,” I call it competition.) Not only is our system different, it is palpably better for the quality of life of the individual. We have introduced envy into the conflict equation.
Unfortunately, with our technology we have shrunk the world. Ignorant tribes of nomads could roam the desert outbacks, occasionally killing each other, without any cognizance of competing ideologies. So long as they remained apart from the modern world, they could ignore it.
Unfortunately, Allah cursed them with oil. Lots of oil. And the modern world could not ignore them. The lurking conflict came into collision.
At the same time there arrived the transistor. The invention of the transistor afforded everyone in the world cheap mass communication and provided a tool of unity for scattered, disorganized religious bigots.
But it also provided inescapable distribution of the ideas and knowledge of the west. The cancer of individual freedom and religious tolerance was loosed into the world of Islamo-fascism. They know. Bush knows. We know. The ideal of individual liberty and freedom will destroy them. As Lars Porsena observed at the advent of the Roman Republic, and as we learned at the coming of the Civil War, you cannot have the same people living side by side, some free and some slave.
We can ignore them and we can tolerate them. They do not have the same luxury. For them it is a matter of survival. They must destroy us or perish.
*The fundamental reason we are stuck with a Jihad or Holy War that we don’t want is the intrinsic historical conflict engrained in our culture versus that of the Islamo-fascists.*
WRONG ANSWER!! The “fundamental” reason we are at war is that we need the oil. Period. We would not have installed Saddam into power without oil, we would not support the Saudi Royal family in their efforts to subvert the English Legal system, or keep silent while they get ready to behead a witch, or idly watch while they beat and jail a rape victim if it weren’t for the oil.
WE WOULDN’T BE THERE AT ALL IF WE DIDN’T NEED THE OIL.
They would still literally be camel jockeys without our junkie-whore need for oil. And then they could do whatever they want to without our oil refineries next to their holiest of holy places. Sacred places.
Lemme say this again:
THE ONLY REASON WE ARE ANYWHERE NEAR THOSE MORONS IS SO WE CAN HAVE ACCESS TO THE OIL.
We have been interfering in their affairs for the last 100 years because we want the oil. They don’t hate us for our culture, or our freedom, they hate us cause we’re there.
And since we as a Christian nation are so much more tolerant and loving in our Christ-like ways, why don’t we go the the Natural History Museum and get some of those old horse blankets we gave the native tribes HERE when we couldn’t get what we needed by breaking contracts and trying to install yes-men.
I don’t think America sucks. I just don’t think we’re a damned bit better than the people we demonize just because the televangelists say we are.
Mr. Guy, I’m not proposing separate but equal. I believe heterosexuals should be able to opt for civil unions as well. We live in a secular society. There is no reason to tie legal benefits for domestic partnerships (regardless of sex) to a religious sacrament. Today, marriage has become just another word for what is, essentially, a civil union in the eyes of the law. Traditionally, however, the concept of marriage was rooted in religion. Conflating the two causes a lot of confusion.
You cannot legislate that gays have a right to get married without the government regualating the affairs of the church, which would violate the separation of church and state. Civil unions would confer the same legal benefits. Anything beyond that is outside the jurisdiction of the law.
Clifford (AKA scumby), if you don’t think we’re a damn bit better than the people we “demonize,” why don’t you choose to live there instead of here? I believe you’re being disingenuous.
I believe you do believe our system, our values, and the core principles that allow you the freedom to express your opinions, either for or against our country, are better than their system, values, and core principles, which would call for your execution for such blather.
This is simply *not* and “clash of cultures” like the neo-cons have tried to fool people into believing. We will never defeat the entire Muslim world…again ask the Romans how that worked out for them.
“Centuries of their history depict nothing but slaughter in the name of each particular sect’s version of Allah.”
You could say the exact same thing about Western Civilization and their different interpretations of Christianity. If we lose our dependance on oil, we can kiss the Middle East goodbye & be the better for it I think. Bush “knows” nothing!!
So, you’re apparently against secular heterosexual marriage too…good luck with that position. We have civil unions in VT, and there are *not* designed for anyone but non-heterosexuals. And the world didn’t come to an end after we implemented them either.
“You cannot legislate that gays have a right to get married without the government regualating the affairs of the church”
Nonesense…look at MA…the world didn’t come to an end there either.
“So, you’re apparently against secular heterosexual marriage too…good luck with that position.”
I’m not sure what you’re accusing me of being against. I said heterosexuals should also have the option of civil union. How is providing that option a bad thing? Legal benefits accrue to those with a legally recognized status. The law today recognizes the sacrament of marriage as implicitly constituting a legal (“civil”) union, and confers certain legal benefits on married couples.
However, it would be a violation of the separation of church and state for the government to require a church to perform a sacrament that violates the beliefs of the church. If the law recognizes divorce, but the Catholic Church does not, should the law require the Catholic Church to marry divorced people? I see this as the same sort of issue.
The church does not have the authority to confer legal benefits, and the law does not have the authority to confer religious blessings. I don’t have a problem with that. Do you?
**Clifford (AKA scumby), if you don’t think we’re a damn bit better than the people we “demonize,” why don’t you choose to live there instead of here? I believe you’re being disingenuous.**
My whole “blather” was aimed at the psuedo-intellectual “inevitability” argument Jackson made. The vast majority of people in the world want to feed their kids and have a meaningful existence, pray to their version of God and get on with the business of living.
If the whole ‘Islamo-fascist’ cancer was the REAL problem,the general Islamic population would have risen up and killed every foreign troop over there by now, don’tcha think? What are they waiting for?
I understand ‘islamo-fascists’ exist and need to be featured in their own snuff films on youtube, but I think they’d fade into “the grave of political failures” along with the commies if we didn’t have a long festive history of egregious meddling and OUR OIL COMPANIES WEREN’T THERE NOW.
My evidence:
The Shaw of Iran
Saddam
The House of Saud
Each of the above have the oil industry to thank for their careers.
Make no mistake about this: I have absolutely no use for their religion or their culture – see my previous posts. But NONE of this has REALLY been about culture or religion. People who want to make it so really need to watch what they wish for.
It is about OIL, and what we are willing to allow so we can get our hands on it. Who cares if they beat and jail rape victims? Stone adulteresses to death and make adulterers pay a fine? Who cares if Afghanistan now produces 95% of the world’s heroin (Taliban money)? As long as we have cheap gas, you can do anything you want to your population. We don’t give a shit.
You know from previous posts I love my country and (most of) our culture, but this obfuscating the truth and willful ignorance about why we are really in the middle east and helping create even more “islamo-fascism” is really beyond me.
You cannot ignore oil if you are going to talk about our mess in the middle east. It is KEY to understanding what HAS happened, what is going on NOW, and what WILL happen next. The tragedy is that few in this country are willing to do (or dicuss) anything, except support the status quo and guarantee the transition into global war for oil, disguised as religious war.
And by the way, I lived with a woman for almost 7 years who’s father build refineries all over the middle east for Bechtel. He was so good at it that HIS name as supervisor on the contracts was a requirement by the Saudis and the Iranians when the refineries were build.
My girlfriend went to school in Beruit when it was a jewel of a city. Her dad retired and came to live with us. He and I spent a couple of years drinking and talking about the middle east and what the governments were doing to their populations as a result of the $$ being generated for oil. He wept when the shaw was deposed. The woman I lived with had dated one of the Shaw’s nephews, and probably knew families that were killed during that time. The Shaw was one of the U.S’s best friends. Our government let him fall. The Saudis choked the oil supply for a bit creating gas lines and we were completely silent.
It is ALL about the oil. Watch what happens when it hits 150 dollars a barrel.
“Every time you fill your car the Saudi Royal Family kills an angel…”
People get confused between civil marriage and religious marriage…they’re not the same, period. To get rid of civil marriage altogether in favor of civil unions for all, I think, it’s a non-starter with most people.
I think Afganistan needs our help *way* more than Iraq does to rebuild their country and economy. Otherwise, they’ll never have a strong central govt. & they’ll continually revert back to growing poppy crops for the drug trade. At least Iraq will have oil revenues…if we ever let them run their own show over there that is. Remember when we gave the Taliban a whole bunch of money to help out in their fight aginst the poppy trade before 9/11? The Shah of Iran was a dictator, period.
Scumby: What is a “pseudo-intellectual” argument? I’m not sure, but I think I’ve been insulted.
I based my evaluation upon what the Islamo-fascists themselves have had to say about the situation and their intentions. Also upon any number of histories, historic proclamations, and relevant timelines. Also when I read what a text may have to say, I like to ask myself, “Why would he say that?” (Reading between the lines.) Although the Israel-is-the- problem line plays well with the cut and run crowd, as does the OIL allegation, neither is heard vary often in the sermons in the mosques in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Their beef is not what you say it is, according to their words. (That is what you hear on CNN from the illiterate Palestinian and it makes for a great sound byte. It is not what is spoken by the intelligentsia motivating the masses.)
I recognize that the peculiar situation in Saudi Arabia is the foundational problem. The difficulty is that we cannot for the moment move against them. That nasty OIL dependence.
Good news. I note the first thing Bush did subsequent to 9/11 was to negotiate contracts for Siberian oil. I note the first thing he did subsequent to the fall of the Taliban was to negotiate for oil from the lower Soviet-stans and for building a pipeline to the Black Sea. When these alternative sources come on line, we can snub our noses at Saudi Arabia and stop funding Al-Qaeda and all the rest. For the moment we cannot. I don’t like it. That’s just the way it is.
Bad news: the cut and run crew like to complain about our foreign oil dependence which is why they won’t do anything to correct the situation like drilling in the U.S. or utilizing our shale oil.
You might not have noticed but they successfully quashed efforts to turn on our shale oil capacity in Colorado last year.
It may be pseudo-intellectual to read the cards your opponent is holding. It is criminally naive not to.
I never said Israel is the problem, nor will I. Everywhere in all my posts I state that the REAL problem here is our refusal to DO anything about our crack-whore need to consume all the oil we can get our hands on. Drilling for more ain’t it.
(As a matter of fact, I think Turkey is a country that makes a lot of your “inevitability” argument moot, as far as religious war. But I could be wrong.)
Wanna win the war on terror? cut consumption 20%, stop imports and move unilaterally on Al queda everywhere. Like we should have in the beginning. Read all my posts around here, they are all consistent on this topic. A million men in the field. Kill every fucking one of them.
I called your eloquent and partially well researched post psuedo intellectual because NOWHERE did it really address OUR addiction or the problem of the current generations living in the middle east
These people have never seen you or I. They have never known what we know about human rights, democracy or the ideals that make ours one of the great cultures of the world. We COULD have been teaching them about all this for the last 100 years but we were busy. It’s a shame they never got the chance to know what generous, friendly people we are. If they had, we wouldn’t be at war.
All they have seen is the true, real life oppression by the likes of the Shaw of Iran, the Saudi royal family, and Saddam, and it has NOT been wasted on them that the face behind the despots in those countries is the face of American oil companies, protected and preferred by those “leaders” over the people who work to build and maintain the refineries and yet see little, if any spoils of oil.
This kind of GENERATIONAL oppression is ripe for exploitation by the death-cult fundamentalists and the reetards that want to take the world back to the 14th century.
America – That is, you and me and the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, haven’t oppressed anyone. We didn’t do that to them. We DID, however, give the oil companies carte blanche in every halfwit despot-run shithole in the world to take whatever they wanted while blithely ignoring the rotten underpinnings of those regimes, and what they were doing to their populations.
America, that is you and I, get blamed for all that, and yes, those Saudi royal families billions pay for the madrassas and the fake charities that support he death cults. we can’t fight back like we SHOULD because we need the OIL. You said so in the post above!
And to ignore that is intellectually disingenuous.
Call me names if you want to. Shit, if you want to call me cut and run because I want to end our oil dependence, so be it.
At least I can walk the talk. As I said in another post, I spent 50 bucks on gasoline last year and this year plan to do better. Your solution is to keep drilling, find another vein, get another fix, keep the addiction alive at any cost. When the time comes will you pimp out your children to drive yourself to the mall? You’re already selling their future short.
I’ll tell you what. Why don’t you use the gasoline that I won’t need this year? I won’t miss it. And while you’re at it, why don’t you just throw another Marine on the fire, Jackson, it seems to be getting cold outside.
Great, we’ll trade being dependant on Arab oil with being dependant on Russian oil…now *there’s* a long-term strategy.
“the cut and run crew like to complain about our foreign oil dependence which is why they won’t do anything to correct the situation like drilling in the U.S. or utilizing our shale oil.”
How about a REAL long-term solution like driving less, conserving more, buying a hybrid or non-gasoline-powered vehicle?
Our problem is our utter dependence on Saudi Arabia. Bush has implemented a strategy of diversification for the short haul which increases our options. For the long haul, we are hordeing our reserves (plenty in shale oil) while using everyone elses. Assuming fossil fuel is a finite commodity, a successful end game strategy demands we be the last to run out. Works for me.
The issue of oil dependence is not nearly so simple as you guys are treating it. It manifests itself in three distinct arenas.
First, there is the strategic consideration. Ever since man evolved into mechanized warfare nations have been dependent upon oil for their national defense. A threat to their oil supply is a threat to their jugular vein, literally. Witness Hitler undertaiking a two-front war he knew he could not win simply because Russia threatened his Polish oil fields. Witness the necessity of Japan starting a war it knew it could not win when confronted with FDR’s oil embargoes. Until an alternative source of energy comes along, this dependence is reality and there’s nothing we can do about it.
Then there is the economic dependence. Since the age of industrialization, our manufacturing has become dependent upon fuel. Even our electronic service industries are dependent upon vast quantities of electrical power. We don’t want to dam rivers or use nuclear power. Thus we are dependent upon foreign fuels and again, there is nothing we can do about it.
Finally, there is the convenience factor. It is nice to be able to travel freely and at length using the automobile. We can give that up. There are lots of other areas: try getting the people to do without air conditioning. Depending upon your point of view, such may be extravagances. To that extent, your criticisms of the good ole USA may be legitimate.
Your criticisms of our strategic and economic dependence are about as meaningful as criticizing us for eating.
Getting oil from shale is extremely expensive…do you want gas prices to go even higher??
“Assuming fossil fuel is a finite commodity”
Are you saying it might not be, or that we’re not even past Peak Oil yet?
Hitler was a fool when it came to military strategy. Surely we can do better than that idiot.
“Until an alternative source of energy comes along”
Stop sticking your hand in the sand…those alternative sources of energy are all around us. HUGE portions of the rest of the wrold are harnessing them, right now! There is no reason that anyone needs to give anything up…conserving is not all about doing the same with less. You keep making excuses for the status quo Jackson…over and over again…
Lets just sum it up:
America belongs to the AXIS OF NO EVIDENCE
These are the truth evildoer!
USA sucks!
the auther is just a lil cocksucker whinning american who never been outside usa and as far as his enigma goes he needs to go back to school cause having an iq of 5O retardedness dosnt usually change the opinion of the rest of the world
I’ve been wanting to say this for a long time:
What is evil?
Does obeying U.S.’s law, supporting this country,doing what it, the leaders, the no good rich losers, all it takes to be good?
“Do you believe they don’t really fund and train terrorists to blow up international civilian targets, or do you believe that’s ok?”
-Do you seriously think that they fund and train terrorists to blow up international civilian targets.
I cannot think of of any terrorist attack in the U.S. since the 9/11. However, the war in Iraq has raged on since 2003 and your fellow countrymen have now killed 100 000 civilians i Iraq. THAT IS NOT TERRORISM???
But there have been a number of terrorist attacks in other countries. Why do you suppose there haven’t been here? Do you suppose it’s because they don’t hate us anymore? Or do you suppose it might be because our increased security measures have prevented it? — Nah, couldn’t be that… You couldn’t even entertain that idea because it wouldn’t fit your political agenda.
Give me a break. Twice now I have spoken to people who traveled by plane recently who had their toothpaste confiscated only to discover after landing that the airport security overlooked the knives and in one case the switchblade in the carry on luggage.
They don’t care if people carry weapons on board just as long as we don’t try to whiten anyones teeth.
The terrorists that we should be fearful of, and guard against, are those American separatists that want to destroy our federal government and return all power to the STATES!
The southern strategy of those that are resentful that the south had lost the “War Between The States” are organized to bring back the traditions that existed during the “Good Ol’ Days of southern dominance in the good old USA.
The struggle against CIVIL RIGHTS has always been a passion that was centered in the SOUTH, and the battle cry, that “The South Will Rise Again!”
is a refrain that has been heard from the time of the civil war to the present day!
Those on the RIGHT WING of the political spectrum have in their ranks, those that have declared that they are willing to take up arms so as to destroy the Federal Government and insure that the individual States will become the primary force in America.
Abraham Lincoln had declared that this sentiment and activity was TREASON and declared WAR against the South for this subversive action against the United States of AMERICA!
If it was TREASON THEN IT IS ALSO TREASON NOW!
It is this terrorist activity that we should be guarding against!
“Why do you suppose there haven’t been here?”
Why go to America to kill Americans when they are in your own backyard? If you think that airport & border security has been enhanced, you’re living in a fantasy world…it’s all for show…
I’m not going to dispute anything you said about islamic extremists, but i’ll leave you with this question. Why should we give up any of our liberties to impose “freedom” on other countries? I’ll even agree that iraq will most likely come out of this better in the long term, but don’t get all cranky when they don’t accept the US blueprint of democracy. After all we have attacked “free” nations in the past. Would you advocate starting a war with all of europe because their constitution is too long? There are probably some people high up that at least entertained the idea. Not because of ideology but because of money. You need to understand that because that is exactly why we went to iraq. It’s sad but true and it’s people like you who enable it. As i’ve said iraq will be better off, but let’s not forget the reasons for going in in the first place. We’re not perfect.
I have many American friends who I would die for but some people need to take a reality check..
It’s $8.9 for a US gallon in the UK so can your whole country stop crying please…
im sorry but do you know who has given the highest amount of money to terrorist orginizations? America has. hell we trained osama bin laden. we gave weapons to iraq and iran. we funded all three countries. because to us over here in america they arent terrorists until they attack us. America is the largest funder of terrorism in the world. now im not saying america is horrible. America has alot of good qualities and good things about it. but whoever wrote this is way off base. try it again except this time facts not opinions.
Good, point. What’s the score now? Muslim terrorists 4900, U.S.A 4,900,000?
Kill em all let god sort em out? That seems to be the American way.
Defending America is like trying to tell ur parents a D- is okay because all the other students got an F. The media tries to tell america is the greatest thing since slice bread. Everyone I know who has gone overseas to Europe has wanted to stay there. We dont want americans to leave, the income tax needs to be paid and the 700 gazillion dollar bailout needs funded. Don’t buy into fear. The only reason we have pride in nationalism is because our parents happened to fuck here.
Why don’t you check out Europe, OBF? Maybe you’ll want to stay there.
I wouldn’t mind migrating to Germany or Canada, at least they have health care.
Steve,
” I wouldn’t mind migrating to Germany or Canada, at least they have health care. ”
Then you must be a slug . I’m sure those places do not have enough people sucking off of the public teat . So just why are you still here ?
You, OBF, and Smartypants could car pool to Canada, or maybe go with a progressive tour group to Deutchland .
Another reason America sucks is because the vast majority of its citizens are so simple they can’t bother to look into the details of 9/11. I mean, nevermind that it’s the whole underlying myth for your country’s foreign policy ever since then, as well as the excuse for all the domestic repression and mainstreaming of police state measures. Why bother, right? Then if someone takes the time to explain it to them they can’t bear to face the cold hard truth that elements within their own government rigged it up as a false flag operation. They literally will cover their ears and go na na na na I can’t hear you. Like a 5 year old. And go on pretending that it’s just a coincidence that every theater of operations in the “war on terror” revolves around oil and/or natural gas resources.
Let’s see: Afghanistan. Taliban had to be removed so a puppet government could be installed to agree to America’s (Unocal’s) terms for natural gas pipelines to be built across their territory from Turkmenistan and terminating in Pakistan at an LNG port. This way central Asian gas can be gotten out of central Asia but without going through Russia or Iran.
Iraq. Sitting on a lake of crude oil. Going to be the center of gravity of the 21st Century world’s oil production. Saddam was going to privatize Iraq’s state owned oil industry with France’s Total and Russia’s Lukoil as the beneficiaries. Only way to avoid that is to invade Iraq, depose Saddam’s government and install a puppet government that will privatize it with the U.S. in the driver’s seat.
Somalia. The U.S. goads Ethiopia into invading Somalia to remove its government and allow a puppet government to be installed that will grant American oil supermajors exploration rights.
And as I said the details of 9/11’s events show it plainly to have been an inside job. Whether one looks at the “hijacker pilots” who 1.behaved the opposite of observant Muslims let alone devoted Muslims; 2.couldn’t fly even Piper Cubs worth a damn; and 3.lived outside N.S.A. headquarters, others lived near C.I.A. headquarters, still others on a military base, still others living with an F.B.I. informant…
Or if one looks at the flight manifests and realizes that real airlines aren’t going to fly Boeing 757s and -767s on coast to coast flights with 40 or 50 people allegedly on board when the planes will hold 180 to 220 passengers.
Or if one looks at the “put” orders placed on the stocks of companies that were seriously hurt by 9/11 like American Airlines, United Airlines and some located in the WTC, “put” orders that made millions when these companies took the dive. “Put” orders placed in the week just BEFORE the 9/11 attacks.
Or if one looks at the Pentagon being hit at all, let alone by something zooming in just above the ground and leaving no airliner’s tail section or wings or fuselage or luggage etc. on the Pentagon’s lawn. And why was the side of it aimed at anyway? Common sense tells you that if someone was going to kamikaze it they would aim for the ROOF because it’s many magnitudes bigger of a target as well as being enormously more destructive. But if I wanted to hit it symbolically and do as little damage as possible, the best bet is to hit it in the side. Right in the one wedge that was under renovation at the time meaning much less personnel present. Right in the one wedge that had just recently beforehand been structurally reinforced to better withstand something like that. Strange bunch of “coincidences”, right?
Or if one considers the pre-9/11 warnings to top generals and to the mayor of San Francisco to avoid flying on September 11, 2001.
Or if one considers that even steadfast defenders of the official myth like the 9/11 whitewash Commission and the N.I.S.T. both admitted that the Twin Towers came down at freefall rate once the “collapses” began. Think about this for a minute. This is itself a tacit admission that 9/11 was an inside job when one thinks about what this means. Solid uppermost floors falling into and THROUGH the solid remainder of the building as quickly meaning as EASILY as falling through air. OK in the real world solid things offer greatly more resistance to a falling mass than air. The only way in real life that something like that is possible is with controlled demolitions, where the underlying structure is reduced to such a non-resisting state by explosives that the upper floors can pass through it unhindered. Otherwise, it’s not happening anywhere remotely close to freefall rate without demolition charges. It’s literally common sense, a child should be able to figure that one out. If you doubt it then ask yourself when was the last time that you saw a car accident avoided because the cars passed harmlessly through one another. You haven’t because it doesn’t happen, solid things offer enormously greater resistance to other solids than air.
So yes, America sucks. It’s a fascist police state in which its government can investigate your library books, demand to see anyone’s medical records and kidnap you in the middle of the night to be tortured in some dungeon after having declared you an “enemy combatant”. It invades countries that aren’t provoking it for economic reasons. And its people if I may stretch the meaning of the word “people” are the most ignorant neanderthals in the industrialized world and the most intellectually cowardly wretches one could imagine, preferring the false comfort of a fantasy world to the real-life adult world of common sense where sometimes you find out things that are unpleasant. Here’s a great idea America: Take your world’s biggest stockpile of nuclear weapons and use them on yourself. Do the world a favor.
Yes, America sucks.
“Somalia. The U.S. goads Ethiopia into invading Somalia to remove its government and allow a puppet government to be installed that will grant American oil supermajors exploration rights.”
Ummmm, Somalia doesn’t have any oil, and Ethiopia has, in fact, very little oil.
“Or if one looks at the flight manifests and realizes that real airlines aren’t going to fly Boeing 757s and -767s on coast to coast flights with 40 or 50 people allegedly on board when the planes will hold 180 to 220 passengers.”
Of course they will. Airlines back then were routinely flying & losing money on flights. I actually flew on United Flight 93 roughly 2.5 months before 9/11, and that flight was packed full.
“the 9/11 whitewash Commission and the N.I.S.T. both admitted that the Twin Towers came down at freefall rate once the ‘collapses’ began. Think about this for a minute. This is itself a tacit admission that 9/11 was an inside job when one thinks about what this means. Solid uppermost floors falling into and THROUGH the solid remainder of the building as quickly meaning as EASILY as falling through air. OK in the real world solid things offer greatly more resistance to a falling mass than air. The only way in real life that something like that is possible is with controlled demolitions, where the underlying structure is reduced to such a non-resisting state by explosives that the upper floors can pass through it unhindered. Otherwise, it’s not happening anywhere remotely close to freefall rate without demolition charges.”
This is pure bunk that’s been refuted all over the place. Anyone that believes this nonsense at this late date is just intentionally deluding themselves.
BTW, this is a *two year-old post* here that you’re ranting in…it’s waaaaay past time to move on.
america needs to stop playing like its the cop of the world it is the only nation that is waging war right now in irak and afghanistan and that terrorist excuse isnt gonna work u created these terrorist u wet ur bed now lie in it
the war in the gulf iraq etc… is a war for oil/ gas
not a war on terror. it is not a fight of christian vrs muslim theology but a fight for capitalist pigs (USA) to steal natural gas and oil before another super power china or russia attempted to do so.
you can not tell me that a super power such as the USA with the greatest military the world has ever known cannot catch one stinking rag tag terrorist leader in 9 years
THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
we have satelites than can see if a penny is heads up or down on a side walk.
I believe 911 is a NOT so cleaver conspiracy to gain the support of the american people in this horrific endeavor. if we did not create 911 then im sure our inteligence agency was letting it happen for just such a reason
as for the muslim belief structure- i dont support such religious views. they fall short in the human rights department and that is putting it very kindly-
why it is that the muslim religion is the fasted growing religion in the world?
That is a very frightening thought, but that is not why we are fighting this particular war.
As for america doing wrong in the world. well yes, ofcourse, just look what we are doing wrong at home.
One could spend hours on all the issues abound
the solutions
The american people will need to vote independantly
there are over thirty partys running candidates
Its time to vote outside the two party system.
I would suggest the socialist party
their platform
end the gulf war immediately
green energy the usa -asap
30 hour work week
living wages
real retirements that start at 60 and actually affords a living
universal single payer quality health care for all citizens
free college education
strong human rights platform
seems to me to be a great step in the right direction
how about you????
remeber come november- right them on the ballot
but please dont vote the same party in
the dema-corpi-cans
THE USA CANNOT AFFORD THIS PARTY ANYMORE
mike,
” 30 hour work week
living wages
real retirements that start at 60 and actually affords a living
universal single payer quality health care for all citizens
free college education ”
Why not. It works so well in Greece.
Alan,
“Good social legislation does not destroy a nation!”
Hey, that rhymes, and it should become a bumper sticker so as to teach the idiot Libertarians, that line up against doing good, for those that have been exploited and oppressed, by the powerful powers that be, in the USA.
Mr. Walters,
I guess you and I are the only two living souls on this board, and given your age I thought maybe you had passed on. As far as Libertarians, I see them as allies. I don’t 100% agree with them, but we at least have the same enemies .
Considering that your hero Obama has had almost total control of the universe for 18 months, I would think you’d be in a better mood .
I would be in a better mood to talk to you, if you’d just answer my questions .
America is Narcissistic
America is FAT people
America is Sexually crazed people
America is NO culture, no way of being.
America is JESUS… that word fails everything it touches.
America is a BULLY
America is controlled by power hungry people you and I will never see, hear or read about and will become slaves to if you and I live in America. I am out of here for good soon. Someone buy me a ticket I ll quit this country right now. haha.
The only people that you can trust in America are the Fascists and the Socialists!
They are the only people that the American people can be sure of where they stand on the important issues of the day!
Everyone in the middle of the political spectrum, are “compromising sell out artists” that cannot make up their minds as to the direction that America and the world should move toward. They talk on both sides of their mouth and stand still when it becomes necessary to take a position and move in the direction of our no longer relevant past, and our not yet tested future.
The world is now a “Global Enterprise” and those that believe that Nationalism and the American Nation is destined for greatness are living in the past and are out of touch with our modern reality.
World Capitalism has outgrown the “Nation State” and cannot care less about what is the best policy for the American people. for the Middle Class or the “American Workers” The policy of “Open Borders” is a policy that is in effect in all nations, so that Global Capitalism can take advantage and have the border-less workers of the world compete with each other in a race to the bottom of the barrel for wages.
The Global Oligarchy of the largest capitalists on the planet have a world view of how to exploit the people and the resources of the planet in the quickest and most efficient way. The age of competition is over, except for workers wages.
“The Consumers” of the world are rapidly becoming impotent and powerless as they must bow down to the price dictates of a cooperating capitalist oligarchy that is no longer interested in a mere profit, but only interested in the highest and quickest rate of profit that is possible under prevailing economic conditions.
This economic fascism can only be successful by controlling the world’s population with a world wide fascist police apparatus, that is as ruthless as was the regime of the Nazis under Hitler!
The only resistance to these global Fascists will not come from the gutless Center of the political spectrum, but it will come from the Left Wing of the political spectrum, as was the case for progress, from the beginning of time to the present day.
A planned world wide fascist market economy that will naturally be designed to profit the few controlling fascist capitalists can only be replaced by a world wide global planned economy that is designed to profit all of the people in the world without discrimination.
The coming to an end of the “NATION STATE” is apparent to all of the people that have eyes to read what is written on the “Wall, of the things that are destined to become!”
The only decision that we must make is “WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON!”
Hello! I hope you do not mind but I decided to post your
web site: https://notyourdaddy.wordpress.com/2008/02/16/america-sucks/ to my on-line directory.
I used, “America Sucks | Government is Not Your Daddy” as your blog title.
I hope this is acceptable with you. However, if you’d like me to change the title or perhaps remove it entirely, contact me at louisesanderson@gmail.com. Thank you so much.