Delivering the Goods

The United States rose up from a handful of rebellious colonies to become the richest and most powerful nation in the world. Why? Because we led the world in production. For 200 years, America delivered the goods.

But, in the 1970’s, all that suddenly changed. For the first time in history, the U.S. started having trade deficits. That means our net consumption exceeded our net production. And, every single year since 1975, our nation has consistently consumed more than it produced. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that’s not sustainable.

The depressing truth is America is no longer a world leader in production. We are trailing the pack. We are now a debtor nation, and our biggest creditor is China. — What the hell happened? And how will we ever recover? And, the more disturbing question is, what will happen to America if we don’t?

If we ever want to restore America to its proper place in the world, the first thing we need to understand is why we no longer have a productive economy. It’s pretty simple, really. — Because we no longer produce. Why not? – If we take a good hard look at the nature of production, maybe we can figure that out. The three key elements of production are capital, labor, and raw materials.

First, you need capital for research and development. To develop a new product that meets a real need in the marketplace takes a lot of research. It may take many years to develop. Research and development is extremely expensive, and there’s no guarantee of success. There has to be an enormous potential return on investment to justify that kind of risk.

That kind of return on investment is what our current administration refers to as “excessive profits.” And they have this notion that “excessive profits” should be punitively taxed. When government puts a lid on the potential for return on investment, what happens? The investors take their capital and invest it someplace else, — someplace that welcomes production, and wants to build up their economy and provide employment for their population. (Unlike the United States, it would seem.)

The second thing you need for production is raw materials. No matter what you want to produce, you need some combination of raw materials to produce it, whether wood, paper, metal, glass, fiber, or petroleum products. All raw materials come from the earth; they don’t come out of the air, or some genius’ imagination, or the printing presses at the Federal Reserve. They all come out of the ground, either through timber, mining, or agriculture.

Here, in Southern Oregon, we live in one of the richest areas in the country, in terms of natural resources. We’re rich in timber. We’re rich in minerals. But, if this part of the country is so rich, why is it so poor? Why is unemployment so high? Because we’re not allowed to use the natural resources with which we’re abundantly blessed. Overregulation, and the endless environmental litigation it has spawned, has all but curtailed the timber and mining industries, — the very industries that provide raw materials for every sort of production on which our economy relies. And the overregulation doesn’t stop there. It’s hobbling the manufacturing industries, too.

The third thing required for production is labor. We’ve actually got a surplus of that. Look at our unemployment numbers, nationwide. Private sector jobs are steadily declining because our industries are stymied by excessive regulation and punitive taxation. So how does our government address that issue? It tries to replace the jobs lost due to declining production by creating new jobs in the public sector.

The trouble is those jobs do nothing to restore our national productivity. Public sector jobs and service jobs don’t create any new wealth. They just swirl money around in the economy. And, as that money swirls around, more and more of it leaks out to other countries, as we buy foreign-made products because we can’t or don’t produce enough at home.

As the real wealth leaks out of our economy, the Fed prints up more and more new money, which only dilutes the value of the money we already have in circulation, leading to higher and higher inflation. As long as we consume more than we produce, there is no way to add real value back into our economy, and our currency will continue to lose whatever value it has. We must restore production to have a sustainable economy.

This country was founded on the sacred principles of liberty and freedom. Not just individual freedom, but economic freedom. America became a world leader because America delivered the goods. That’s what it’s all about. That’s what it’s always been about. We have to stay solvent to preserve our liberty. If our economy fails, we’ll lose our freedom. Stifling production smothers the economy. And that’s what our government is doing.

Contact your Congressmen and Senators and tell them we want our economy back. Government can’t solve this problem. Government is the problem.


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155 CommentsLeave a comment

  1. Nice post and nice to see you back in action.

  2. NYD,

    Running trillion dollar deficits just so you can go down in history as the health care President is the road to insolvency.

    “Contact your Congressmen and Senators and tell them we want our economy back. Government can’t solve this problem. Government is the problem.”

    Obama and the Democrats campaigned and were elected on the government will take care of me lie. Too many of our fellow citizens need the feds to wipe their butts. Too many of our fellow citizens believe the government should steal money from other Americans and give it to them. This is Socialism.

    I heard a talking head on MSNBC say that half the people protesting against socialism on 9/12 did not know what it was. He of course was lying.

    • Hardly anyone watches so a few mistakes must not matter.

      At least I assume that their thinking.

  3. I am all for responsible reporting on the public airwaves! Those that use the airwaves to deliberately and repeatedly use fabrications that are not true, are dangerous to the public safety and to the constitution that is supposed to guarantee our rights of free speech. Americans have free speech rights, … but not the freedom to shout “FIRE!” when their is no fire, inside a crowded theatre!
    The irresponsable reporting by the likes of “Glenn Beck” creates a “mob” mentality! A mob mentality that can and will (according to history) incite to violence, those that are portrayed as different from that of the mob!
    Let’s face it! There are those in america that are looking forward to inciting a “RACE WAR,” and are using the public air waves and the fact of a black president to incite mobs to act violently against the government of the USA!
    You have to be blind to not recognize the conservative movement direction toward insurection of a pluralistic and multi-cultural america and instituting in it’s place what existed in our racist fundamentalist bigoted past!
    All of this backward movement toward our unenlightened past is being done in the name of fighting “COMMUNISM!

    • Welcome to Daddyland, despicable. We usually encourage people to make comments that are relevant to the topic of the post on which they’re commenting.

      There are many posts on this blog, and you should have no difficulty finding some that are relevant to whatever comments you wish to make. (You can do a keyword search, using the Search box on the right.)

    • You sound upset. That is no reason to restrict our freedoms. Someone could very easily make that argument in the reverse or even about what you’ve just said. If it’s good for one, it’s good for all. Surely you can see how this could (depending on popularity at a given time) restrict your freedoms.

    • despicable,

      “Americans have free speech rights, … but not the freedom to shout “FIRE!” when their is no fire, inside a crowded theatre!”

      You are a tad bit mistaken. Americans DO have the right to shout “fire” in a crowded movie theater regardless of there being a fire or not. The issue you bring up is one of RESPONSIBILITY. If one is going to shout “FIRE” where there is none, there will be reprecussions. One must be responsible when employing one’s rights.

      I have never been able to find a single law forbidding the fredom to shout “fire” in a crowded movie theater, nor have I found a court case where such an action was defended on a first amendment basis.

      Rights beget responsibility.

      • “Americans DO have the right to shout ‘fire’ in a crowded movie theater regardless of there being a fire or not.”

        Wow “DJ”…just when I think you can’t sink to an even deeper level of stupidity, you come up with a phrase like this. My goodness…

        “I have never been able to find a single law forbidding the fredom to shout ‘fire’ in a crowded movie theater, nor have I found a court case where such an action was defended on a first amendment basis.”

        Another unbelievable display of willful ignorance! In the 1919 U.S. Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States, the court held that “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic.”

        Also, there have been two instances of this kind of “speech” actually happening:
        -the Barnsley Public Hall Disaster took place on Saturday, January 11, 1908 in Barnsley, South Yorkshire, England, and resulted in the deaths of 16 children, due to someone falsely shouting “fire” in a crowded theater.
        -the Italian Hall disaster is a tragedy which occurred on December 24, 1913 in Calumet, Michigan where 73 men, women, and children, mostly striking mine workers and their families, were crushed to death when someone falsely yelled “fire” at a crowded Christmas party.

        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnsley_Public_Hall_Disaster

        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster

      • It’s also legal to split hairs.

        “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic.” Was overturned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

        IOW: The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect Glenn Beck from being falsely accused on a blog by those who want to cause chaos and panic by promoting ACORN type tactics, unless their speech can be tied to cause/intent of…a clear, imminent danger.

        So, DJ is correct and Mr Guy is (perhaps not willfully but truly) ignorant, not to put too fine a point on the difference of saying something, even if untrue.

        England actually has nothing to do with this, as it is referencing another country’s potential judiciary, regardless of similarities.

        The Holmes quote and court case had a clear and present danger attached, where the court unanimously ruled the illegality of distributing fliers opposing the draft during war. A more pertinent part of the opinion is, “The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.” It’s since been limited to imminent lawless action of blatantly obvious outcomes.

        The courts seem to ‘err’ on the side of DJ.

    • Also, ‘despicable’, you seem to use your caps key a lot. You’ve made appropriate use of it and then some. It’s interesting that you temporarily forgot you had a caps key when typing…America.

      Yes, freedom is available in America. For you and Glenn Beck. We do not need (more) gov’t dictating what we choose to listen to or interrupting by indoctrination, just because you disagree with his efforts.

      A gov’t sponsored ACORN type tactic towards shows such as Glenn Beck’s isn’t what free speech is about. Your un-capitalized scenario isn’t a free anything. Your anti-capitalism is part of the problem. My America is the land of the free and the home of the brave.

  4. NYD,

    This piece has brought out economy issues in an easy to understand way.

    “The third thing required for production is labor. We’ve actually got a surplus of that.”

    This ‘available labor’ has always been a problem when hearing that companies hire illegally because no one wants to do the job. They do so because they’re avoiding the market and are allowed to avoid. On the other hand, legislatures make it difficult for employer/employee to wage bargain.

  5. despicable,

    What are you upset about? Your people, President Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi are running the country. They are running it in to the ground, but that is what you voted for. Don’t worry, be happy.

    As far as Glen Beck. Calm down, take a deep breath and just post specific details of what Mr. Beck has got wrong.

    Remember that the topic is economics. You brought in the unrelated stuff.

  6. I like your post and have put you up on stuff that I’m following. One point of disagreement, up until the War of 1812, we were net importers, due to blockades and such we started the craftsmen revolution, etc.
    After the war of 1812 we stopped sending our money back to merry old England and started reinvesting it in our own productivity. There is evidence that the loss of money to the banks in Britain may have been a factor in the manipulation of the US into our War between the States (Civil War applies to a wresting of control of the central government–so the war was one of secession, not a civil war).

    • Very good post. Thanks for the clarity.

      • But…

        There was a civil war. Perhaps it’s more accurate to say these were two events going on somewhat simultaneously. Certainly they were interconnected.

  7. Don’t despair yet. Reports of US manufacturing death are greatly exaggerated.

    “USA is the leading manufacturer in the world with a 2007 industrial output of USD 2,696,880 millions.”

    • Bohemond,

      Would you kindly provide a link to your quote. I am curious as to what is being produced.

      Thank-you.

  8. It would be nice if when someone posts something and someone else raises questions, the poster defended what they wrote. I do not pretend to know everything that Glen Beck says so I would like despicable to cite details of how Mr. Beck did what he is accused of. I personally have doubts that it happened.

    Making accusations of inciting a race war and mob violence is serious if you can’t back it up. So far you are no better than Speaker Pelosi.

    • Basically, ‘despicable’ didn’t say anything. That was just an opinion. It was also proselytizing his ideology, is all.

  9. Great articles, NYD!

  10. Thank you, Smile. Welcome to Daddyland! I emjoy your comments.

  11. “Was overturned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

    Really?? So that case DIDN’T hold that the govt. cannot punish inflammatory speech *unless it is directed to inciting & likely to incite imminent lawless action*?? Of course it did! Nice try though… :)

    From your very own link:
    “Finally, Douglas dealt with the classic example of a man ‘falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.’ In order to explain why someone could be legitimately prosecuted for this, Douglas called it an example in which ‘speech is brigaded with action.’ In the view of Douglas and Black, this was probably the only sort of case in which a person could be prosecuted for speech.”

    “So, DJ is correct and Mr Guy is (perhaps not willfully but truly) ignorant”

    In your dreams that is…lol…

    “England actually has nothing to do with this”

    Riiiiight, because we didn’t derive large portions of our system of justice from them…sure, sure…lol…

    “The courts seem to ‘err’ on the side of DJ.”

    Wrong, plain & simple. Try reading your own links next time buddy.

    • Comrade Guy,

      You REALLY need to learn to read; from the SAME link’

      “…held that government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless it is directed to inciting and likely to incite imminent lawless action.” (emphasis mine).

      This decision is punishing the action NOT the speech.

      • Oh my, DJ…2 for 2!

        Guy, quit arguing with yourself.

        Love,
        buddy

      • “This decision is punishing the action NOT the speech.”

        Wrong again wing-nut. Your position is idiotic…it’s the speech that incites the activity, and it’s the speech that can be punished therefore. Wake up…

    • Let me see, if a label, name, or accusation is flung, along with any stated position, this proves…nothing. Except in the mind and minds of those they prefer to associate.

      Otherwise I could just say, @#$$%^, *&56647! And *%&! I can use the exact “speech” that led to the problem action but there being no problem action following, there is no punishment handed down by the courts.

      Though I’m correct, my tactics have nothing to do with the proof. The facts speak for themselves.

      Perhaps this still isn’t clear, which I’ll assume speaks to another problem.

  12. Those of you that say, “Government” is the problem and that our economic salvation is to get government off our backs and to let the private sector without government interference be free to do what it does best for the system of capitalism and America!
    You IDIOTS that believe this dogmatic Libertarian nonsense are truly blind to our recent American history!
    The democrats have replaced the republicans as the “party in power” because of the obvious reason that the democratic party represents the “end of the Republican Era,” of “unrestrained capitalism,” that is allowed to run wild, without government oversight, as they pursue the “all mighty dollar!”
    The economic collapse of the world market economy occurred during the Bush regime that cared little about the common good and only cared about investors making a quick profit, … and the “public be damned!”
    The present day “Republicans” have gone so far to the extreeme and are allied with the out of touch backward thinking Libertarians that think that they know everything about economics but know nothing, except how to be greedy and anti-social, This type of activity is represented to their greedy anti-social followers, as being for “individual freedom.”
    This “republican extremism,” will very quickly dump the republican party into the “trash can,” of the no longer relevant political parties that existed in our no longer relevant past!
    With the disappearance of the no longer relevant “republicans,” from our modern day reality, I believe that their will be a new “political realignment.”
    The democrats will morph into the modern day, relevant conservative party, and a socialist leaning party will become a mainstream party in a modern day two party system.

    • Is this extreme enough?

      -SEIU
      -Beating people up.
      -Making accusations and acting out same accusations, pretending to be the accused.
      -Nancy Pelosi acts like she isn’t aware of the Rev. Jim Jones connections.
      -Democrats state they are Socialist and Communist.
      -Libertarians often vote Democrat.
      -Burning down churches.
      -By any means necessary tactics.

      Phunny, all Democrat actions and policies.

    • despicable,

      Please define “unrestrained capitalism”.

      If you analyze the bills and actions of the current two party system, you will see that the “Democrats” are in actuality “Progressives”, as in Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR Progressives, they push a Socialist agenda-just like you. The existing Republican Party pushes a Liberal agenda (sorry Alan). There is NO Conservatism in our current political make-up. There has not been a true conservative since Reagan. Your views and policies have governed since Bush 1, and the evidence shows that a liberal/socialist/Progressive agenda causes the economy to tank. Instead of being mad at us (Conservatives and Libertarians) who have not played a significant role, why not stand up and be proud of what YOUR ideology has accomplished. I am pretty sure you will not, it is not in your nature to accept responsibility, it is in your nature to play politics and blame the Republicans. Why? Did they not move fast enough to the left for you.

      • “Your views and policies have governed since Bush 1, and the evidence shows that a liberal/socialist/Progressive agenda causes the economy to tank.”

        LOL…sure, sure…the economy under Clinton “went into the tank”…LOL!

        “it is not in your nature to accept responsibility”

        You’re projecting once again “DJ”…oh my…

      • We should look at the whole picture, rather then just a single administration.

        What to policies lead to, is overlooked.

        If money is printed and the market flooded, this will cause a form of prosperity for people. So does other measure. We’d best look at what this leads to.

        Again, facts can be a problem when adjusting them to an ideology.

        The absurd economy balloon was subject to burst, as had been projected. And so it did.

        This is not to say that there isn’t plenty ‘blame’ to go around. This is to say there is a lack of credit to be handed out to ones favorite.

  13. despicable,

    I like how you never answer any questions. You post things that you cannot defend, then you run away. First of all the government is far more corrupt than the private sector. That is ok with you because with your party in power your side enjoys the spoils.

    Second of all calling us idiots. Perhaps, well then we are very fortunate to have you and President Obama around to protect us from ourselves.

    We actually are not blind to recent American history. You are right that the Republican era has ended, you guys are in charge. You’ve had Congress for 2 years and the Presidency for 8 months. I must say you are doing a fine job. The capitalist system continues it’s collapse. The public sector continues to add jobs. The good folks manning the unemployment offices have plenty of customers.

    It is true that economic crisis began under the Bush regime. It is not true that his policies caused it. You totally ignore all of the evidence on this site, on the other boards, of your guys corrupting the financial and housing sectors.

  14. If you don’t get it try reading the article upstream, gov’t is the problem.

  15. The insurrectionists in Texas and in the southern states of America are looking backward toward a freedom from our federal democratic government, and backward toward a liberated segregated provincial way of life that is bigoted and white supremacist and free from the ideas of the “Enlightenment.”
    States Rights and republican conservatism and mercantile capitalism is the unrealistic thinking and goals of the most backward elements in the USA.
    Wake up! The Twenty-First Century Capitalism is “Global” and all powerful! It is impossible to resurrect the past! The world of nationalism is being negated out of existence by the global economy. Capitalism and big business is all powerful and all global! For now it rules with an iron hand!
    You backward Libertarian conservatives should wake up to today’s reality!

    • Despicable,

      How would you describe your philosophy? You are definitely not a capitalist.

      • I am a “DIALECTICAL MATERIALIST!”

  16. My fellow capitalists, I want to show you where some of the private capital that our beloved President Obama has extorted from us, is going.

    You can actually be an evil entrepreneur as long as you have ties to the political party that won the last election. In this case it is to Al Gore. Your tax dollars at work. MG, you should be really happy. This is green with a capital G.

    http://www.manufacturing.net/News-California-Automaker-Gets-528M-Federal-Loan-092309.aspx?menuid=

    Excerpts:

    “Fisker Automotive, a California manufacturer of luxury electric vehicles, will receive more than $500 million in federal loans”

    “Fisker, launched in 2007, is expected to release its first vehicle, the Karma, in the summer of 2010. The $87,900 plug-in luxury sports sedan, which has solar panels on the roof and allows motorists to drive gas-free for 50 miles (80 kilometers), will be built in Finland by Valmet Automotive.”

    “Fisker has raised tens of millions of dollars from top venture capital firms such as Palo Alto Investors and Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, of which former Vice President Al Gore is a partner.”

  17. despicable,

    Dialectical materialist. :) :) :) . So you’re a high class marxist?

    • Dialectical materialism is a “scientific method” that is used to understand matter in motion, …the way society and the world is structured, and how and why it changes, and how history evolved and developed in it’s various stages, and how to predict with scientific accuracy within the laws of probability, …outcome, … and the inevitability of the inheirant nature and charicteristics of past and future change.
      This is only my understanding of “Dialectical Materialism,” and I am only a very old student of the subject that is developing and ongoing!
      I am not “high class!” I am “working class!”
      http://blogdespicable.blogspot.com/

  18. Comrade Guy,
    “Wrong again wing-nut. Your position is idiotic…it’s the speech that incites the activity, and it’s the speech that can be punished therefore. Wake up…”

    You REALLY do not comprehend the english language do you? The action is what is punished, NOT the speech. Try and spin it however you desire, you are still wrong. I can say I am going to commit a crime, but until I do, I have done NOTHING wrong-perhaps unpopular, but not wrong. If I say something that causes someone else to do something wrong, I may be accountable for their ACTIONS, but my speech is not wrong. PERIOD.

    • “The action is what is punished, NOT the speech.”

      The action is caused by the speech, moron!

      “I can say I am going to commit a crime, but until I do, I have done NOTHING wrong-perhaps unpopular, but not wrong.”

      LOL…try saying something like, “I’m going to kill the President” & see how far you get, moron.

      • How far did it get them “I’m going to kill…” or “the president should be killed…” during the Dubya administration? Mm hm. That’s correct, there has been no attached punishment to your so called crime. Quite despicable though, I agree Guy.

        Speaking of despicable, “..our federal democratic government…” Wrong. “Freedom from” is rather oxymoronic in your context. What the actuals are is freedom of promoting our Republican Democracy v. your Bolshevism.

        Yes, the theory of redefining the (failed) world slave trade. Admittedly, it was brilliant. Rather then work the angle of the rich having power over the poor, the angle of having the proletariat rule was the theory introduced by some of the science/intellectual think tankers of the time.

        It was still a system of rulers, just changing the thinking of who would do the ruling.

        It was and remains a ‘by any means necessary’ tactic. It remains a form of manipulation of the masses for popular support.

        Tracing back from the end of the 19th c. and forward from the 20th, the labels of the cause, psychiatry, theory, indoctrination, tactics, education, infiltration, pacifist and warmonger, have/do change but the goal remains the same.

  19. Despicable,

    I see that this could degenerate in to a theoretical morass. Until you wrote the term I was unfamiliar with it, although I am generally well read. As I tried to understand it’s basics, your dialectical materialism philosophy seems to defy simplification.

    Rather than deal with the theory, which is beyond me, I prefer to deal with the practical results of it. It is marxism. Every reference I found confirmed that. I am disappointed that you did not openly admit to being a marxist.

    After reading about dialectical materialism, I’ve concluded that since I’m at least as smart as your average peasant and I could not grasp it’s meanings, your average exploited worker would not understand it either. Since you do understand it, you are therefore above the average in education. I list education along with wealth as class markers. Logically you are a high class marxist.

    • You can be a communist and not be a Marxist! …You can be a Marxist and not a communist party member! … I thought everyone knew that!
      I have never been a member of an organized religion or a organized political party! My activism has always been as an aware individual! I prefer individual political activity but I am aware that organized activity is more productive.
      I am a High School dropout and don’t regard myself as an intellectual. But I never cease to be amazed at how ignorant so many people are about that which is to my mind, so clear cut obvious!
      I credit my understanding of “Dialectical Materialism” in giving me the scientific insite to understand the way the world works! This materialist philosophy is to my mind the highest evolved way of scientific thinking that has or had ever existed.
      But enough about me so let’s get on with the peoples revolution!
      http://despicable.wordpress.com/

      • despicable,

        I have to say that my first instinct is to attack everything you wrote. I am a dyed in the wool capitalist. However, I admire intellectual honesty. You are modest about your formal education, unlike some on this board whom I won’t mention.

  20. [...] presents Delivering the Goods posted at Government is not your Daddy., saying, “The depressing truth is America is no [...]

  21. Communazi: Not a label many wanted to ‘out’.

    That faux-peace agreement and its secret protocols, signed 70 years ago on Aug. 23, 1939, divided Eastern Europe between the Nazis’ swastika and the communists’ hammer and sickle. The pact shocked Western Europe and the United States. But Poland, in the land trapped between the armies of National Socialism and Marxist Internationalist Socialism, understood the immediate implications. Poland’s two old enemies, both with territorial and imperial ambitions, were setting the political conditions for war.

    And war came on Aug. 31, 1939, when the Germans faked a Polish attack on a German border outpost, giving Berlin a pretense. The panzer tanks attacked in the early hours of Sept. 1, beginning what Nazi propagandists dubbed the Poland Campaign and what contemporary history books call World War II.

    The term “communazi” is illustrative. Both murderous, anti-liberty ideologies demand state control of the economy, culture and media, and both crush individual autonomy. The communists’ clever spin that enthralled Western intellectuals was to “redefine” democratic and liberal terms to camouflage their authoritarian goals. George Orwell called it Newspeak in his classic novel, “1984.” http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/29/the-hitler-stalin-pact/?feat=article_related_stories

    • Smile,

      Good article on one of my favorite subjects, the origins of WW11. History continues to repeat itself. Western Europe did not have the will to arm itself and make a preemptive strike on the Axis powers. Politicians deluded themselves with schemes like the Maginot Line and the Munich Agreement. Politicians like Winston Churchill who pushed for aggressive early action were labeled war mongers.

      Coming out of that war, much was made of it’s lessons. The West would never again let evil grow unchallenged.

      We are now lead by politicians Obama, Pelosi, and Reid who are throw backs to weak 1930’s leaders. By canceling the missile shield Obama has double crossed Eastern Europe like Neville Chamberlain did. It’s been reported that France’s Sarkozy was furious with President Obama over the handling of the disclosure of the second Iranian nuclear operation.

      Obama believes that the force of his personality can steam roll the world’s dictators. They are not as stupid as the American electorate.

      • Alan,

        Yeah, great article. The reason I especially liked it is that it wasn’t some Wikipedia, historical, or known source of studious and reliable information. It’s just an article by a journalist that happens to support and define all the above sources (historical docs, docs from trials, national info/docs/some recently released…starting from the earliest ancient scroll to the present) that can be searched out…if anyone cares to do the digging. That was perfect for exampling the knowledge of ‘it’.

        It’s still amazing how one must step around or note in the middle of an otherwise reliable source (see www) the propaganda of the original fools of liberty haters. This hate comes from various angles and can be seen as anti-Jew, anti-Israel, anti-Christian, anti-religion, anti-capital (except for themselves), anti-free-just about anything-except for themselves (see speech, the right to carry arms, capital, ownership…). Of course an ever present anti-American stance is found eventually, subtly, or outright. It seems there’s a lot of info that mixes facts with an injection of preferred ideology and accompanied conspiracy. Most conspiracy theories are blatant lies slyly mixed with unpopularized facts, which is a brilliant tactic of confusion as there are conspiracies (and other reason it’s a terrific tool for tyranny). This is further confused by those (some innocently, some in utmost guilt) who are reluctant to admit the truth of personal/national error. But very interesting to connect the dots and the morphing of the ever existing good v. evil by any other name, and the constant war for control up to the present day…

        An exhausting subject.

        On the anti-capital/free trade, I imagine ‘despicable’ has gainful employment. Gainful? How hypocritical. To be ‘free’ of hypocrisy, one or several measures could be taken. All wages should be donated to favorite cause while not stopping at Go but proceeding to a gov’t agency to be provided with a ‘care pkg’. Or perhaps quit job and proceed to gov’t agency. Or give me any capital accrued and I promise to do benevolent things with. Anything else is merely conversation.

  22. Smile,

    Communism and Capitalism are competing economic systems. I’m fascinated that Soviet Communism managed to last 8 decades. Capitalism has it’s ups and downs, and it has a great capacity to rise off of the canvas when it’s been floored.

    Capitalist systems have individual freedoms as their basic tenets. Communism, as a top down command system has to rigidly control people because it has no other mechanism for harnessing the collective productivity of it’s citizens.

    If you look at any military even the American, it has to function as a top down command system. It can’t be democratic. I believe that one of the ways the Soviets were able to last as long as they did was because they were mostly in a state of war.

    While they generally produced low quality consumer goods, the USSR turned out impressive military equipment from WW2 on. From the middle of WW2 they were extremely militarily competent.

    It was during periods of general peace with the west during the cold war that socialism caused the Soviet system to rot. The same can be seen in the economies of Cuba and N.Korea.

    • Alan, you seem to be not aware of certain historical facts, or you are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the gullible.
      First of all, … their has never been a communist society, and if a communist society existed, the state apparatus would have withered away and you would have an administration of things not an administration of people. obviously the conditions for the state to exercise power is present under the system of socialism and under the system of capitalism.
      The economy that exists inside a capitalist and socialist society can be characterized as being that of a “Market Economy!” and that of a “Planned Economy!”
      A “Market Economy” is designed to enrich the competing capitalists and to give prestige and power to the most successful for market share!
      It is a “Top Down” system where the most successful competitors rule the market place and attempt to buy off all opposition.
      Under a “Socialist Planned Economy” their exists not competition for market share, but “Cooperation” for the sharing of what is produced with the entire society. Much of what was attempted failed because the conditions and resources that would make this possible were not yet present in a powerful capitalist dominated world.
      Under the old “Soviet Union” and under the capitalism of the USA and elsewhere, you have and had similar government rule that was for the most part pragmatic in their approach to governing their respective societies.
      The amount of constitutional free speech and association and guaranteed rights under every and any government apparatus is contingent on the existing internal conditions. Every nations distinct history, culture, religion and psychological nature has everything to do with how the people under the stress of conflict and necessary change will conduct themselves.
      To say that a socialist or a capitalist government will act in a different way to insure the preservation or extension of their particular economic system, is false. The history of conflict between opposing classes and nations have been for the most part, PRAGMATIC!
      “Fascism,” is the dictatorship of the CAPITALIST CLASS!” “Socialism” is the dictatorship of the Working Class! “Democracy is possible under both Capitalism and Socialism when the conditions of revolution, rebellion, martial law, insurrection, and counter revolution, are not threatening the status quo!
      http://despicable.wordpress.com/

  23. despicable,

    First off I do not deceive. What ever I post I believe in. Sometimes I am wrong or my powers of argument are not up to the folks I’m conversing with. Perhaps not up to your standards.

    Second of all, you say there has never been a Communist society. Perhaps not fitting your definition. Since you can’t give me any examples, your ideal Communist society seems an unproven theory. Maybe that’s why it’s never been tried. In the end ” Pragmatism ” is essential.

    I can only guess that what you have in mind were the Utopian societies in Europe and North America, existing in the 1800s. An example would be the Shakers.

    On a previous board awhile back I debated these. All of these societies were limited in size and longevity. I submit that your Communist ideal cannot work even as well as the Soviet model in a large modern country with hundreds of millions individuals of differing talents and needs.

    • The theory of communism is not a mystery, but is well known and understood by millions of people throughout the world!
      I am always surprised that people who argue against the “Theory of Communism” are so misinformed about this subject, and appear to be fighting against “windmills” and not the “Theory of Communism” as it is understood by millions of people all over the world! …Perhaps it is the fault of the educational system, under capitalism! …A Capitalism that has a vested interest in obscuring the truth of that what it is in competition with.
      One of the most popular arguments against the realization of a “Communist Society,” is the argument that you cannot change “Human Nature” and that “greed” and “anti-social” people will always exist so it would be impossible for the “State Apparatus” to “Wither a Way,” leaving an administration of “THINGS, … NOT PEOPLE!”
      Most, if not all, psychologists are in agreement that the “NATURE” of all living things, change so as to be compatible with their surroundings, and when their changing surroundings are no longer compatible with the individual living things, living inside a particular environment., it becomes the “NATURE” of all living things to “STRIKE OUT” against their surroundings in an attempt to change their surroundings so it becomes compatible with the changing nature of the individual.
      In other words “Human Nature” is constantly changing so that it could become more compatible and able to adjust to it’s constantly changing environment. compatible
      It is only common sense that if an environment would emerge that has the particular character of being able to supply the material wealth that would satisfy the material needs of all of the people in that world environment, the idea of individual wealth and individual status because of owning more than what everyone else owns, … in other words “Conspicuous Consumption” would no longer be regarded as a symbol of status, but be regarded as being selfish and anti-social in a world environment that lives by the rule of “from each according to their ability, and to each according to their need!”
      In a secure environment that no longer needs laws to restrict anti-social activity because everyone becomes a social scientific being that has the ability to become their own leader and scientifically understand their world environment and how to be in harmony with that world environment. The worlds people under this Communism will finally become a integrated global one world village that can save the world environment for future generations and create a balance between nature and the human species.
      This is the COMMUNIST IDEAL that is understood by Marxists as not only possible but necessary to save the planet for future generations.

  24. While the Democrats waste billions of dollars on stimulus that only helps their friends like ACORN, REX is creating good paying jobs. And it is actually providing a real product in the end. It is being funded by those capitalist pigs that Obama Inc. loves to hate. What is it? Well it ain’t some BS green energy boondoggle.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125434385013253579.html

    “Huge Pipeline Delivers Bonanza to Towns on Route”

    “ZANESVILLE, Ohio — To the energy industry, REX is the king of pipelines. For this town’s struggling work force, REX is the king of jobs.”

    “About 1,500 workers known as “pipeliners” work in rural towns for months at a time.”

    “REX has consumed over 27 million man hours and created 10,000 jobs”

  25. Despicable,

    You spout a lot of theory and then say I am not aware of historical facts. How about we stop talking theory, and discuss historical facts or at least those that have actually happened.

    You said there has never been a communist society. I must then question you on the closest example I can think of. You believe that the Soviet Union was not a true communist society. What was it? It was not capitalist.

    In the 70 odd years that the USSR and the USA went head to head, which was the better place to live?

    • Alan Scott:
      It is a “historical fact” Alan, it is not a theory, and it is understood by most people through out the world, and I am very surprised that you did not know, that in the former Soviet Union, all of the leaders including Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, and all of the leaders that followed these leaders, and all of the communists through out the planet, from the beginning of the establishing of Marxism in the world, to the present day, all of them had said and understood that what was being established in the Soviet Union, was a “Dictatorship of the Working class! This working class dictatorship was established, so as to prevent a “counter revolution” A counter revolution by those that were large property owners in Russia and throughout the capitalist world.
      A “Peoples Democracy” for the workers in that society, was established and an economy that was planned to satisfy the needs of the population, and to build toward creating the conditions where a system of socialism can advance into a system of COMMUNISM! … A communism that had not as yet existed anywhere on the planet! and still does not exist anywhere on the planet. It is still a theory not a reality!
      The system you had inside the former Soviet Union, and was acknoeledged by friend and foe alike, was a system of SOCIALISM!
      I thought everyone knew that!

  26. despicable, Quit splitting hairs. Yawn!!! Regardless of what it is called, communism is still good v. evil by any other name. This has been discussed upstream: Communazi was the term coined and I see it remains unpopular for you. Communism is evil because it seeks to eliminate freedom. Capitalism is good because it requires freedom to be a bona fide capitalist, except in bits and pieces due less freedom. “The system you had inside the former Soviet Union, and was acknoeledged by friend and foe alike, was a system of SOCIALISM!” Fellow Travelers/Communism/Communazi/Bolshevism/Marxist/Nazi/Socialist/the peoples revolution… These are what was attempted in Europe and the Soviet Union. These are one and the same (Bolsheviks decided to change their name to Communists) in that they are the means to a common end. The end we remember, justifies the means. The reason communism doesn’t rule is because it has failed. I thought everyone knew that.

    Your more then adequate intelligence is totally useless if you equate the lack communism with not having tried it and therefore needing to try before we can denounce. We have tried it and it was denounced and (somewhat) defeated. I thought everyone knew!

    To say it (communism) doesn’t exist “anywhere on the planet” (by whatever name, a rose is a rose) is ignorance and manipulation. It exists in some measure in the USA and elsewhere by degrees. I thought everyone knew that.

    Keep in mind that just because something has been manipulated to become popular does not prove it has good results, worth, wisdom, or has the best interests of the public. It’s just mob rule. Else fast food would be a fountain of youth.

  27. @Alan Scott

    “Communism and Capitalism are competing economic systems.” I think it would be more accurate to say that Capitalism competes with itself and Communism/Communazi/Marxist…competes with Capitalism. The Communist system has already been proved incapable of competing. Therefore it seeks to eliminate its perceived enemies by any means necessary. Its greatest enemies are bona fide Capitalist/individual freedoms.

  28. This Communism thing can’t stand on its own merits and would be nothing without class warfare and race baiting.

    We’ve heard of ‘follow the money’ but with communism we must follow the manipulation. See the USA institutions of learning, mass media, et al. It is very patient and will attach itself to anything that will help promote its agenda, such as terrorists. For obvious reasons it prefers the Democrat Party and any enemy of the USA is its friend.

    So, follow the subversive manipulation. All else is merely conversation.

  29. There isn’t a lack of resources. If some have “Conspicuous Consumption” it has nothing to do with there not being enough for others or that by eliminating consumption it will provide more for others.

    All over the globe we have examples of rich resources that people are not allowed to turn into capital for themselves and it undermines the whole country/continent.

    To manipulate people to see others as the problem is counter productive. Hmmm… from each according…to each according… You’d think everyone would straight away see the fallacy of restricting individual freedom, self determination, its creative production.

    • The problems that the loonies on the right wing of the political spectrum have, that makes them loonies, is the fact that they cannot identify what is objective fact, backed up by indisputable evidence. They seem to prefer to build up “straw men” of their own making and then proceed to beat to death the “straw man” that they created, and then congratulate themselves for a job well done!
      It does not take a well informed person to pick up on this dishonest tactic by the right wing loonies. These loonies appear to attract those, of the population, to their side, that do not care about indisputable objective facts, but are more comfortable with believing subjective prejudices and the emotions of fear and hate!

      • Hey despicable,

        As soon as I read your “The problems that the loonies…” I thought, you wouldn’t fling out accusations and name calling. You’d know it’s moldy and lame, therefore doesn’t work anymore. So, I figured you must be talking to yourself and I didn’t read further.

        Then I thought I’d give you more credit so I read your comment post. Too bad, I was right the first time.

        I’m glad I read through. It reminded me of something: You people seem to think you can make accusations and that make them correct.

        It’s perfectly alright to disagree without all the drama as it does nothing to make a valid point about my points that you don’t address, but to each his own.

  30. despicable,

    We are going in circles. You say you can’t believe I do not know that the Soviet Union was a system of SOCIALISM, not Communism. I’ve looked up both meanings online and they are nearly identical.

    Also, how can there be a dictatorship of the working class? A dictatorship is absolute power wielded by one person or a very small group, whereas the working class is a very large group.

    Smile,

    You and I agree on capitalism. I am trying to give despicable a chance to make his case with out being too impolite. I am trying to be respectful while asking him clarify what I see as contradictions with in his arguments.

    • Alan Scott:
      The following is a the “Classic Definition of Communism!” If you don’t want to accept it, you don’t know what you are fighting against!
      “Communism” is defined as that which is built on a foundation of socialism.
      Under communism you have a planned global economy that has created the material conditions of enough abundance to allow the distribution of goods and services to be equally distributed to all of it’s global citizens without discrimination. “From each according to their ability! “To each according to their need!” Under communism cooperation replaces competition.
      Under a system of “Material Cooperative Abundance” that exists within the confines of the entire global community, a new type of human nature will eventually be born out of this type of secure environment. A Social Scientific Being that becomes their own leader and their own follower and does not need a political government or state apparatus to tell them what to do. A new human type that understands the material needs of his and the world’s surroundings and would voluntarily act in the best interest to further the common interest of the world and the people that live in that world. Consequently the “State Apparatus” of police, court system, jails, etc. withers away and you only have an administration of things, …there is no longer a need to have an administration of people.
      Obviously this condition does not exist under capitalism or socialism!
      It was the desire of socialists to start the beginings of laying the foundation that will eventually bring into existence the birth of a new social scientific cooperative society, that will eventually give birth to a new social scientific cooperative beings that will be qualitatively able to live in harmony with his or her environment.
      This state of being is called COMMUNISM!

    • Alan Scott,

      I know we agree.

      As to the Communazi (or whatever they called themselves back in the day when the intelligentsia, philosophers, scientist…) they did sell their ideology to the working class because they figured the needy would fall for it. They did and some things never change, they still do. If the Bolsheviks cared they would have offered them freedom. The Bolsheviks/Communazi changed their label to Communism. They have never wanted anyone to be free: They were bloody careless about collateral damage and committed all the atrocities this poster ‘despicable’ shares about others. The Bolsheviks were colluding with the others.

  31. Alan Scott:
    I am sure that if you studied the history of the world you would understand that in the past their existed “DICTATORSHIPS of one class of people over other classes of people!
    Mussolini said that “Fascism is the dictatorship of the “capitalist class over the working class,” and that he, Musolini, is the dictator FOR the Capitalist Class!”
    Fascism under Hitler, and Musolini, had also the charicterstic of being racist and bigoted.
    Under the system of a MONARCHY the King rules on behalf of the Aristocracy and dictates to those that are not the “Landed Aristocracy”, ,,the class of Slaves Peasents and Tradesman, were forced to bow down and to kiss the Aristocratic feet and ass of this ruling class!
    Historically the Catholic Church through the Popes, exerted dictatorial power over their members, and ruled in conjunction with the royal families and the Aristocratic Class!
    The history of America is the history of “class struggle” between the class of large property owners and the exploited class of workers, small land owners, indentured and chattel slaves.
    Class exploitation is the reason why workers all over the world had found it necessary to organize as a class into a Union Movement that would force the exploiting class of Industry and capitalists to bargain with Labor so that the laboring working class can recieve a larger share of the “Gross National Product!”

  32. despicable,

    I am trying to keep my responses to you as short as possible. Know this, I am a history buff. Because I do not draw your conclusions, do not think I am not knowledgeable.

    I know what fascism, monarchism, socialism, COMMUNISM, and every other ism is. I know them as they are actually in practice. I question you closely because I’ve never come across a pure theorist like you.

    I submit AGAIN, that while you may succeed in destroying capitalism, you will never replace it with your vision of COMMUNISM. The ISM that you will get will be StalinISM, MaoISM, or at the very least ObamaISM.

    • Alan Scott:
      Alan, I do not intend to destroy capitalism! …Capitalism does not need anyone to destroy it because capitalism will destroy it self!
      Nothing lasts forever, everything has a life span and when capitalism reaches the stage of development where it can no longer grow, it will begin to die, and eventually it will be replaced by that what is the diametric opposite of capitalism, and what is more relevant to the newly evolved conditions.
      The economic system of “capitalism” was an advance system over the “feudal system” that it replaced. Every economic system is the foundation that every society is built on, …and every economic system is an advance over the previous economic system because of the continous advance in technology.
      Capitalism can only enrich it’s capitalist class by controling “supply and demand.” If technology developed the means to produce massively, so as to satisfy the needs of all of it’s citizens, it would become impossible to control the economy and to control the market place so that they can buy cheap and sell high in a controled manner.
      It is this continuing advance in the developing and refining of our modern day technology that I believe will be the cause of the decline and death of capitalism.

      • I suppose that I no longer will be challenged on what I have posted here, because those that were challenging me have deserted this page and subject for quite a few days now!
        I suppose they ran out of ammunition and ran away with their tails between their legs!
        Right Wingers and their Libertarian ideologues are so intellectually bankrupt that they run out of ammunition before the sun sets, and run for the hills screaming the commies are coming.

  33. despicable,

    It is your own choice to ignore posts (upstream) that shed light on your ideology.

    Further, you might want to reflect on your discourteous and accusatory tone. Most are quickly bored with these tactics despite your self proclaimed intelligent convictions, rather then baited to challenge your assumed superiority.

    You might also note that you are at risk for hijacking this thread and have insisted on remaining off topic. As with most religions, it’s called proselytizing and is not a discussion.

    “The United States rose up from a handful of rebellious colonies to become the richest and most powerful nation in the world. Why?” NYD

    “The three key elements of production are capital, labor, and raw materials.” NYD

    It’s up to you, despicable, to examine your errors of which I’ve no desire to debate with you. Here’s an example of where you can start:

    “Under communism you have a planned global economy that has created the material conditions…” This part of the theory has been brutally tried to the nth degree.

    Now, a “plan” does not create anything, much less material conditions. This isn’t a theory, it’s a foregone conclusion of historical magnitude. There hasn’t been a commune of any type that has ever changed “human nature.” There are certain mental/emotional responses that can be elicited, especially in fear, loss, dependency, and the like: A Rev. Jim Jones kind of psychological warfare. Oh yeah, Rev Jones was a ‘fellow traveler with you, despicable. Hmmm, amazing little dots to connect…everywhere!

    Russia was not defeated by Germany. It was imploded (the inside job) by the likes of Lenin, Bolsheviks, Trotsky, et al. Then there’s the Trotsky ‘problem’ but that’s yet another topic ;)

    We see the slow encroachment in America via education, the sciences, expulsion of religious traditions, perversion of a beholden media replenished from those indoctrinated, various tax burdens, and breaking the back of the industrious, profitable, generous people who create capital…same old ‘cancer’ element whose “plan” has infiltrated.

    The “without discrimination” was proved an outright lie, from Russia with love as it were. Or maybe from Germany, considering the money Lenin brought from there into Russia and other factors ;)

    “…police, court system, jails, etc. withers away and you only have an administration of things…” Yeah, sigh. Things like starvation, neighbors reporting on neighbors in the hope of saving themselves, and the chaos of devastation. But perhaps that is only the inevitable condition that exists just prior to the utopia of which you speak and isn’t the actual utopia itself, aka the insane genious trying the same old thing expecting different results.

    It’s all about control of others, rather then self control. Self control is all about individual freedoms. Individuals rule themselves and is therefore a bottom up and by the people, rather then Communism which sells snake oil to people by telling people they should rule other people. Regardless of the length of time, people who are ruled will eventually seek to be free. This desire to be free is what the Communazi takes advantage of. This is the system that was imagined by those of the ruling class who were in jeopardy of retaliation and overthrown by the proletariat due all the abuses. This perverted union that extracts (dues…) from workers. This thing, Dialectical Materialism, Communazi, Marxist, Communist, Socialist, Bolshevik, Menshevik, Labor/People’s Party/Worker’s Party, can’t stand on its own merits and would be nothing without class warfare and race baiting. It’s arch enemies remain individuals who are free and create capital.

    “Perhaps it is the fault of the educational system, under capitalism!” Hmm. Not in the USA. The USA has a facist, socialist educational system at present. Never has it had a “capitalist” educational system. The capital system can be taught but it isn’t an educational system nor a gov’t.

    “To say that a socialist or a capitalist government…” What the… We are not speaking of a Capitalist gov’t. We are speaking of a Republic with democracy and a capital form of monetary system. You are the one referencing this hypothetical Capitalist Gov’t (I’ve never heard of this gov’t), which has nothing to do with what we are discussing. You are at risk of making it very apparent to more then just a few that you stringing words together to fit your ideology, irrespective of reality and facts.

    “The history of conflict between opposing classes and nations have been for the most part, PRAGMATIC!” One wonders what you mean by pragmatic, but one doesn’t really care which definition you are grasping as one doesn’t desire the faux discussion it would require.

    “Democracy is possible under both Capitalism and Socialism when the conditions…” You are still speaking of capitalism as if it equates to a type of gov’t such as Socialism. Democracy isn’t possible under facism and socialism, except in degrees and therefore isn’t actually such. There is no such thing as “under” capitalism. Democracy is possible with capitalism and capitalism is possible under various types of gov’t in various degrees, as is seen in USA.

    “Under a “Socialist Planned Economy” their exists not competition for market share, but “Cooperation” for the sharing of what is produced with the entire society. Much of what was attempted failed because the conditions and resources that would make this possible were not yet present in a powerful capitalist dominated world.” Where on the earth did this socialist planned economy fail in a powerful capitalist dominated…. In Russia the people had been deprived of a free press and were convinced that the whole free world waited expectantly for Bolshevik rule, the actual Russian conditions (and backroom deals) being kept from world view or knowledge. Even in this protected, planned, bubble it became what it is: the whole country of Russia was collateral damage at the alter of those who wanted to rule via telling ‘workers’ that they would rule. Communism would be nothing without class and/or race devision, it’s an insane genius. That is why it attacks, usurps, takes over, and controls the institutions we see partially exampled in the USA.

    “…Dialectical Materialism…” Marx contended that philosophy had to stop “interpreting” the world in endless metaphysical debates, in order to start changing the world. This ‘change’ was a communal goal of all of these theorists. Freedom wasn’t of interest to them. They were looking for a way to rule. Some may desire to highlight the differences in the various labels of these cancers to a healthy people. They all worked together in myriad ways, which is the main obsrvence.

    To each their own. Which would beg the question (if one were interested in you, which isn’t likely) why you are not living in a country more aligned with your ideology.

    • Very well said Smile!

  34. despicable,

    “I suppose that I no longer will be challenged on what I have posted here, because those that were challenging me have deserted this page and subject for quite a few days now!”

    :) :) :) I will always challenge you. I never run empty on ammo. I have posted so much on this board that sometimes I am only talking to myself. I wanted to give others a chance.

    I want to thank you for posting in volume. You have given me quite a bit that I now ask you to defend.

    You said, “Under communism cooperation replaces competition.
    Under a system of “Material Cooperative Abundance” that exists within the confines of the entire global community, a new type of human nature will eventually be born out of this type of secure environment. A Social Scientific Being that becomes their own leader and their own follower and does not need a political government or state apparatus to tell them what to do. A new human type that understands the material needs of his and the world’s surroundings and would voluntarily act in the best interest to further the common interest of the world and the people that live in that world. Consequently the “State Apparatus” of police, court system, jails, etc. withers away and you only have an administration of things, …there is no longer a need to have an administration of people.”

    A new human type? You have confused human beings with termites. Human nature does not change. I challenge you to study history. I keep saying it, your communist ideal only works on a small scale for a limited time.

    The hippie “communes” were your version of “communISM”. If they truly worked, all of us would have by now become long haired, sandaled dope smokers.

  35. Smile,

    I am glad to see your response to despicable. I have hijacked this forum more than once and I am trying to break the habit. Unfortunately despicable is the last liberal standing on this board.

  36. What makes it frustrating to have a conversation with those that are on the “Right Wing” of the political spectrum, is the seemingly impossibility to have these creatures of the Right, understand the actual objective content of what is stated. It seems that the preconceived dogmas held so closely by the “Right-wing” has blinded them from seeing clearly arguments by the Left Wing of the political spectrum.
    I explained as clearly as possible that “Human Nature” changes when the conditions, situations and circumstances change. This is understood by everyone that is not living in the “Middle Ages,” and are familiar with the “Age of Reason” and the “Period of the Enlightenment.” Yet the Righties insist on siding with the ignorance that prevailed during the “Dark Ages!”
    I will say it once more and perhaps what I have to say will sink in!
    HUMAN NATURE CHANGES! …When you are living under “Desperate Conditions,” it will be the “Nature” of those that are living under that kind of a condition to reflect that desperation and act in accordance to the extent of the desperation.
    The NATURE of humans as well as animals being confronted by scarcity will act in a competitive and aggressive way so that they can get what is scarce before what is scarce has been all grabbed up and the competitor is left wanting and not receiving.
    The HUMAN NATURE under conditions of Material Abundance will no longer be desperate because there will be enough of what is needed to be distributed to everyone without discrimination. When the need to compete is not apparent the only possible alternative, is to “COOPERATE!”
    Communes that existed in America and elsewhere during the 60’s were a far cry from being socialist or communist. …Communes were a reflection of the break down of the “American Family” and the disillusion with the aggressive policies of the American Government.
    The continuous development of modern technology will, with out a doubt, make it possible to eliminate the scarcity of necessary goods and services so that it will definitely be possible to provide to the people of the world what is needed to survive and thrive and to have world peace inside a integrated one world village that will make war no more, and will have all power come from the bottom up.

    • Despicable,

      History does not in ANY WAY support your assertions. Most of us on the “right wing” do understand what you are saying, and we know it is wrong.

      In order for human nature to change “under conditions of Material Abundance” requires there to BE an abundance. That will require someone to (in the case of food) plant, grow, harvest, and move it to a place of distribution, without the motivation of PROFIT, who is going to do those things?

      Your position implies that everyone will be happy getting their daily bucket of food from the government, and THAT is contradictory to human nature. People like freedom, you seem to believe people will enjoy servitude.

      • D J
        Most people that were NOT born into the lap of luxury, will tell you that when you are poor and you are in need of a job, …that is NOT available! …In desperate need of food that you can’t afford! …In need of shelter that is beyond your means! When this is your situation, … you certainly are not FREE!! ..Only rich Republicans and greedy Libertarians will say that you can have “freedom” when you are poor!
        People that are denied food clothing and shelter will risk going to jail and loosing their freedom, by doing what ever it takes to feed themselves and their families.
        I certainly don’t understand how you got the idea that when you have a “planned economy” that you don’t have a work force to do what is necessary to produce what is needed for the entire society. …Planned Economy means that the entire economy is planned to produce what is needed to satisfy the needs of the entire community or society. “Planning” means the entire process of working, processing. distribution, etc. etc.
        The difference in producing for a “Market Economy” and a “Planned Economy” is that a market economy is primarily interested in serving capitalists and delivering profits to the capitalists that own the “Means of Production!” The workers are only a cog in the wheel of production, and most of the value that the worker produces is taken from the worker and given to the capitalists, and that what is taken from the worker is the capitalist’s profit.
        Under a Planned Economy the workers own the means of production and what is produced by the worker is given back to the worker by the planners of the economy, because the workers own the MEANS of PRODUCTION!
        With todays advanced technology you can have complete transparency with regard to the planning, so everyone is in the know as to what value is produced and what value is distributed, inside a classless society!
        The MOTIVE for doing what has to be done inside a planned economy is not individual greed. as is the case in a individualist capitalist economy.
        The motive is to be a social human being and to give to society according to their ability, and to understand that the distribution of what the planned economy has produced will be distributed to everyone according to their need.
        I understand that much of what will become the reality of humanity’s future, appears as of right now to the backward looking right wing reactionaries, as something that they would find difficult to adjust to. That is because they have only known the characteristics of a “Capitalist Market Economy” and the competition for success that is measured by the amount of money the individual accumulates and is motivated by greed and selfishness so as to be competitive in the marketplace.
        I agree that these basically anti social right wing types would find it difficult to adjust to a social rather the a individual kind of society. …But lets face it you backward looking Righties will be long dead when the future moves into our present reality, and drastically changes everything that you are comfortably in tune with.

  37. despicable,

    You are well versed in socialist dogma, but your knowledge of practical economics is zero. Your stuff sounds good, but it has never worked. Capitalism works.

    The atomic bomb was just a theory until those explosions in 1945. Your stuff is all unworkable trash.

    You have said that it’s never been put into practice anywhere, although it really has. Explain in DETAIL why the 60s communes were not failures of communism.

    A capitalist is one who supplies capital. You want the government to be the supplier of capital.

    • I ought to take Despicable with me to Russia or China so he can see the outcomes of his dogmatic adherence to a pseudo-intellectual and dead philosophy.

  38. Alan:
    The communes of the 60’s were a form of “tribalism” that replaced the dysfunctional families that existed during that time. They were a sub group of rebellious young people that were disenchanted with our aggressive foreign policy and with the continuing culture of war and hostility toward everyone that did not conform to a rigid standard of conformity.
    These separatists groups of alienated young people that want to break away from the mainstream are a common phenomenon in our history. They are a far cry from being a “Communist Society!”
    During our prehistoric times their were tribes that lived a communal life and were forced to share in common with everyone because only by working together and sharing, could the entire tribe survive in the hostile environment that they inhabited. Their communal sharing cooperative society is designated as a “Primitive Communist Society.”
    Because of the primitive means of gathering what was needed, for the tribe to survive in a harsh environment, it was necessary to share and share alike for these primitive tribes to survive. “Rugged Individualism” was not an option for these primitive tribes because the individuals would be eaten up alive, by the hostile environment!
    First you had a communist society that was communist because it existed in an environment of scarcity and primitive tools for producing the basics for survival. That scarcity forced the tribes to work and live together in a communal way so that they could survive.
    The opposite environmental condition, eventually occurred, (Marx called this phenomenon (“The Negation of the Negation”) and it exists in all forms of evolution. The Communism that we are rapidly approaching is a communism that will become necessary because of the opposite conditions that exists now from what existed under primitive communism. The opposite condition is the condition of not material scarcity, but rather “Material Abundance” that became possible because of our modern technological advances in the sciences and in the instruments of production!
    It is no longer logical or rational to have people in our modern world be deprived of what is necessary to survive and to live well. It is an abomination of what now exists in the world, because of the possibility of what can exist in a Socialist and after that a Communist World!
    Like it or not the future will become a INTEGRATED ONE WORLD GLOBAL VILLAGE THAT IS RULED BY EARTHLINGS, FROM THE BOTTOM UP WITH NO MORE WARS AND NO MORE EXPLOITATION!

    • Communism is dead for a reason. Maybe you need to come to China or Russia with me and find out why. Having been to both many times, I will have to tell you that your ideas are unnatural and doomed to failure.
      But hey, if you are into controlling people, brainwashing them, and executing all dissenters until everyone agrees, it will work out fine for a while!

  39. despicable,

    I did not think you would actually give me an honest answer on my commune question. thank you.

    That said, I nearly totally disagree with you. The primitive communist label for a commune is right. For whatever reason hippies arrived in communes, they economically lived by your principals. They small scale disproved everything you believe in. Your tribal comments, are also wrong.

    There are plenty of rugged individualists in primitive tribes. There is competition with in the tribe for leadership, mates, and other resources. Those rugged individualists are either killed, exiled, or become the tribal leaders. Even outcasts can survive long enough to join other tribes or return to their native community later and take it over.

    History abounds with such examples, if you care to read anything besides Karl Marx.
    ****************************************************

    Your arguments are loaded with unneeded complexities. You also use these arcane terms like “Dialectical Materialism” and “Material Abundance”. To a simple man like me, they are just so much mumbo jumbo.

    With out over simplification I keep trying to distill our disagreements down to a few basics.

    This will be my next attempt.

    Individual competition for resources is a universal condition. Cooperation is the channeling of individual competition in order to gain greater resources for all.

    Communism assumes cooperation eliminates individual competition. You refuse to admit that individual competition will still exist under Communism, it just becomes a political competition. The Commissars get the mansions and the ZIS-101 limousines. The peasants get to starve on the collective farms.

    Capitalism recognizes that individual competition not only cannot be eliminated, it is essential for prosperity. It redirects the individual competition for the greater good. A Henry Ford can become rich by building a factory to make the first affordable car for the working man. Communism is not capable of that.

    Destruction of an existing reality can come at any time. You and I are more likely to see that with your fellow Jacobin as President. I would bet that whatever comes next will be anything but a global village. And that Citoyen despicable is based on historical precedent.

  40. Alan:
    I am forced to admit because of your great logic that competition existed and will exist in primitive and advanced Communist societies
    When I mention “competition” or “cooperation” as a characteristic of a society, my meaning is that these characteristics are the foundation of those societies and are basic to the character of a society. But as every one knows there are exceptions to every rule, so I am sure that in tribal societies and in advanced societies that you have examples of cooperation and of competition.
    Under Capitalism the basic characteristic is to compete for dominance in the society. But it is obvious that the competitors join up and cooperate with others so that they can better compete in a capitalist competitive environment. I am sure that their are other examples of cooperation under a competitive Capitalist system.
    It appears difficult for those that are “Conservative Right Wingers” to appreciate natural change that becomes necessary, so they cling to the no longer relevant past. They have always fought against necessary change with the emotions of HATE and FEAR!
    For the record I would like to say that “I do not FEAR or HATE Capitalism,” I recognize that Capitalism was an advance over previous social systems. That it provided an advanced technology and science to the world that never before existed. That it was responsible for bringing together nations with a global perspective and a appreciation for the meaning of “Democracy! “Capitalism” was responsible for the industrialization of the undeveloped countries of the world. It was responsible for giving birth to the Working Class and a large Middle Class. ETC. ETC.
    But like all good things it must eventually end! Everything that exists and had existed has a “Life Span!’ Nothing lasts forever, and all that we love and cherish will grow old and die and be replaced by something that is more relevant and useful to the changing times.
    The most important factor that will bury Capitalism and allow Socialism to take it’s place as the logical heir to the throne, is the fact that Capitalism will not and cannot allow the massive production and distribution of goods and services so as to insure that all peoples in the world are economically secure.
    The fact is that Capitalists at this point in time must, so as to insure the greatest amount of their rate of profit, so as to stay competitive, must be able to control “Supply and Demand!” and if the supply becomes massive it would be impossible to control the notion of buying cheap and selling high! In other words it is a fact that Global Capitalism controls what is produced and what and where and how much is distributed to the people in the world, thus controlling the world price. The creating of artificial scarcity so as to be able to sell high. and buy cheap when what is sold is artificially flooded on the market, … is what I believe will be the straw that will break the back of the system of Capitalism.
    The people of the world that are living a life of insecurity and depravation will rebel against this kind of economic control over their lives, because they will be aware that their exists the technology, that can produce all that is necessary for all of the people on the planet, to have a economically secure and good life.
    A world class planned economy would be the only alternative to a controlled market economy.
    I thought everyone knew that!

    • You again confuse capital with gov’t and gov’t manipulations. “Capitalism will not and cannot allow the massive production and distribution of goods and services so as to insure that all peoples in the world are economically secure.” Yes and no. Yes, creating capital would allow and there is no lack in resources in the world. No, it doesn’t and can’t because others and various countries choose not to allow their people to have the freedom for capital.

      Further, other countries keep their people from free trade as with North Korea et al.

      The people using fear and hate are found…well, just read your posts here and compare to others. You also have a habit of projecting your tactics and behavior unto others.

      I understand the difficulty of discussing your ideology without this kind of manipulation. I’m sure you couldn’t submit your ideology without the attacks.

      • No doubt. If you think Capitalism fails to deliver the goods, communism and socialism are even worse. Go to Russia and ask a Russian. Capitalism, like Democracy, is not perfect, but it happens to be way better than the alternatives. And if you look at nature, you will see that nature and natural selection have a lot more in common with capitalism than with socialism and communism. Socialism and communism are unnatural, which is why they are doomed to fail. And it is why you have to threaten people with death to get them to accept it.

  41. despicable,

    Thank you again for an honest answer, but you must realize that everyone on here will not be persuaded to change their minds. I am just as certain of being right as you are. You say, “A world class planned economy would be the only alternative to a controlled market economy.
    I thought everyone knew that!”

    I will never ” Know that “. So what are we arguing about? We are arguing details. Why do you or I believe what we do? You post what are heresies to me. I attack any logical weaknesses I find. I expect no less from you when I defend capitalism.

    Anything you or I post must be able to be proven or disproved. Capitalism has a track record of successes and failures. I submit that a lot of what you post is not valid because it cannot be proven either way.

    When I post a history of Communist failures in the USSR, hippie communes, etc., you argue back that they were not true Communism. Since true Communism has never occurred historically, there is no way for you to prove what you say.

    The Communism that will arise after you and Lord Protector Obama kill off capitalism , most likely will be the failed versions. I do not relish that my children and grandchildren will live in that Warsaw Pact world.

  42. @despicable

    When you respond with name calling and personal/group put downs toward those who disagree with you, along with guilt trips, accusations, and stirring up class/race divisions, it underlines the fact that your ideas have no merit.

    It’s amazing that you claim to believe in the Communazi type systems yet can’t speak of them as if presenting a better idea. You seem to lack confidence and resort always to being derogatory to those who don’t agree. I don’t mind personally, it just shows you have a weak argument.

    I would challenge you to spend time in a country that most closely represents your belief system. I’m telling you that it will always benefit those at the top while restricting those in the middle and bottom. It would be impossible for a poor immigrant to be anything other then less poor. You feel that this system supplies provisions for all people. I’m saying that even what little you have would be lost or taken from you.

    In the USA there is an environment for the creation of wealth. People can become millionaires without owning a business, just wage income. This freedom has long been under attack

    In North Korea, the Dear Leader is free to pursue wealth but the people are not, they can’t even choose to leave the country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

  43. Smile,

    You and I argue the historical record of Communism versus Capitalism. despicable argues those were not true Communism. With in systems there are competitions amongst all of the variations. I do not understand how despicable can believe that a Utopian Communism would out compete a Stalinist variant.

    Competition with in Capitalism is it’s strength. It rewards economic value and punishes failure more efficiently than any other system. It has it’s flaws, but as W. Churchill said of democracy it is the worst form except for all the others.

    • Alan,

      despicable does not argue FOR Communism, he argues for Utopia. I believe he fancies himself an “Intellectual”. I would venture to guess that he has lived in the lap of luxury most of his life and feels guilty for it….just my opinion, I could be wrong.

      • DJ,

        I doubt that you are right about despicable’s background. In fact I’m pretty sure about it. Unless his bio is not accurate.

        Every liberal eventually gives up on discussing the details of what they say they believe. He was actually doing well for awhile, but then gave up and resumed the name calling. I didn’t think we were all that rough on him, but I see I am in error.

        When he said on 10/9 that us right wingers had left the field with our tails between our legs, I had hopes he could handle our response. It’s really no fun beating up on an old man.

  44. Despicable,

    “Under a Planned Economy the workers own the means of production and what is produced by the worker is given back to the worker by the planners of the economy, because the workers own the MEANS of PRODUCTION!”

    Do the planners plan who plants, who reaps, who sows, who delivers, who sells?

    Do the planners plan who paints houses, who drives the school bus, who pumps gas?

    Do the planners plan who fights fires, who drives the ambulance, who works in the hospitals?

    If your answer to those questions are YES, then you are advocating slavery, if your answer is NO, then please explain how an INDIVIDUAL can CHOOSE to be a fireman or a plumber or a NASCAR driver. Under the premise of NEED vs ABILITY, the need of the State to grow the food to feed the people is going to force more people into the fields than would choose to work there on their own.

  45. It seems that the Libertarians and the Right Wingers that post on this site are incapable of having an intelligent conversation because they are not informed and are not knowledgeable about why opposite tendencies interact. The cartoon perception of the “Real World” that is perceived as the forces of “Good and Evil,” fighting with guns blazing until Good conquers Evil. This blind and simplistic perception by the political “Righties” about the way the real world works prevents the Political Right wing to understand the science of political change and how to perceive the world realistically and scientifically.
    I have been trying to with my posts, inform the “Stuck in the PAST” conservatives that the reason that they no longer have political power is because the new voters that flocked to the Democratic Party, are no longer interested in the cartoon version of history that is for the most part simplistic “Propaganda” designed for Morons. The “Private Sector” of the economy has forever been exposed as being insensitive to the well being of the general public and are only interested in furthering Corporate Power and Military Power at the expense of the poor and the middle class.
    It is a fact that the Political Right Wing has lost touch with the American people, it seems that the belief by the bloggers here, that in the USA their exists “Free Enterprise” and that competition is the basis of our capitalist economy, shows how uninformed and behind the times the bloggers here are.
    The belief by Right Wingers that social change is caused by conspiracies is because the “Righties” don’t have the intelligence to grasp the scientific truth about the anatomy of societal transformation.
    The Republican Party has become out of touch with the modern world and has become a modern day “Flat World Society” phenomenon.

    • There’s nothing funnier than listening to a leftist simpleton explain why he’s smarter than sensible people.

    • Soooo, your just going to ignore my questions? Pretty sad for an “intellectual”….

  46. My fellow freedom lovers, it’s past time to ignore this individual. He’s a troll/posts as various fellow travelers, twisting by assuming an out of one many, as he hates ‘out of many one’ and ‘in God we trust’. I say, don’t feed him/it.

    It seems that he is obsessed with explaining how 2+2 doesn’t equal 4, projecting that those who disagree have wrong thinking.

    It’s obviously unproductive to continue to give him time and print space. He can retreat to his own site to do his preaching, after accusing/goading others for ignoring him.

    Specifically, I’m requesting that we address and respond to one another and ignore this proselytizer of ancient slave trade/Weimar Republic/German Empire tactics.

    He won’t like it and will continue to ask questions and/or accuse others of ‘not being able’ to respond to him effectively. Ignore him anyway and don’t take his bait. This has been effectively answered and he’s been given his long winded say. We’ve basically allowed him to provide lessons on ‘how to ruin America’ from the inside as in other countries, using methods of old dressed in a few new labels/tactics.

  47. This is such a simple explanation of gov’t systems. Note how we often hear our politicians et al erroneously calling our gov’t a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic and those that hate it hate freedom. A must see:

    • Smile,

      I have a short attention span. Once I forced myself to sit through it. Not bad. Actually pretty good.

      I can think of a few people I’d like to force to watch it. Some aren’t even in Congress. If you find a similar video explaining Capitalism, post it.

    • “We are a Constitutional Republic and those that hate it hate freedom.”

      Ahhh, the tired old phrase of “Republic”, which in the USA’s case merely means a representative democracy, period end of story.

  48. That was a well done video that made some good points! …But the video left out one glaring fact that is part of the historical record.
    The controlling power of those that are, and have been a class organized oligarchy that has exerted it’s power against those that are ordinary people, that do not own, or are small type owners of private property. The historical record of this tyrannical rule of large powerful property owners and the consequence of this dominating relationship on those that were slaves, Feudal Serfs, Share Croppers, Indentured Servants, Wage Slaves small and medium business types, etc. etc. The corrupting private enterprise tyranny of the “Narcotics Trade, “Prostitution Rings,” The corrupting influence of government politicians on the take being bought off and treated like a valuable commodity by the “Merchants of Private Capital.” The “Free enterprise merchants of death” … starts wars so that they can make “Blood Money” on the backs of the ordinary citizen soldiers.
    This powerful capitalist oligarchy of global proportion dwarfs our government and every government on the planet. It causes more damage then governments because it has bought off most of the governments on the planet. It is they that rule with an iron hand.
    The PRIVATE SECTOR for the sake of making a profit has made a “Pact with the Devil” and the “public be damned!”
    By pretending that the GOVERNMENT is the ENEMY, those that can’t see too well are distracted from the real enemy, and that is the global oligarchy of capitalist blood suckers that want to continue their bloody war on the average citizen!

    • Dude, you are a fucking nutcase, really.
      Please start the revolution. Go get a real education. I’m posting today from an actual communist country. I went and ran 6 miles this morning, the air here makes you gag because it is so polluted. There are massive contruction projects, and yet people who live in the country go without a lot of stuff, like health care, even thought the government says everyone is taken care of.
      Communism is dead, this country is falling the the capitalists. It’s fun to help make that happen!

      • “the air here makes you gag because it is so polluted.”

        Try running around in TX on a summer day in the city…lol…

  49. Richard Walters aka dispicable

    This thread is not a podium for you to preach your Marxist/Communazi dribble.

    Anyone with half a brain is disgusted at your despicable bs. FYI, there is no one with less then half a brain within reading distance We can all count (say..numbers in the unemployment lines caused by people who hate business and capital) as well. Unlike the Democrats, who don’t count PRIVATE SECTOR jobs. I guess they have your fetish for long lines.

    We’ve no attraction for your stinking corpse, regardless how beautiful you try to dress it up.

    • “Unlike the Democrats, who don’t count PRIVATE SECTOR jobs.”

      LOL…now who has the better recent track record on private sector job creation…GOP or Democratic Presidents. HINT: It isn’t your side, moron.

      • Sources?

  50. Smile,

    As I thought about it, what really defines a Capitalist system is private property rights. I found the following source that I liked.

    http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PropertyRights.html

    “A property right is the exclusive authority to determine how a resource is used,”

    The next article is about what happens in the real world when as Karl Marx said, “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.”

    http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/TragedyoftheCommons.html

    Tragedy of the Commons

    • Those are great links, Alan. I’ll have to visit them often. Thank you kindly.

      This gave me several: Competition for…is not eliminated by…controls. What changes is the “coinage” of competition. The restriction on private property rights reduces competition based on monetary exchanges for goods and services and increases competition based on personal characteristics.

      It made me think of a doctor, an M.D. Free trade capitalism has greatly hindered our health care systems. When it isn’t a consumer driven business, there are price controls, mandates, exorbitant taxes, tax breaks for some…another exhaustive topic. It’s exampled when one sees that the health insurance for a 70 year old woman covers all aspects (pre, post, lab work, ultra sound, labor and hospital…) of pregnancy, or birth control methods, due gov’t mandates. This is an unnecessary cost among many…

      • Perhaps I need to get checked for dyslexia or something :D :D

        I’ve noticed that I often leave a word out or structure a sentence in such a way that it ends up saying something I didn’t quite intend.

        Above, I typed: “Free trade capitalism has greatly hindered our health care systems.” That isn’t what I mean to say. As one reads the rest of what I’ve typed in that paragraph, it’s clear that I mean to say that free trade has been adversely impacted by Socialism (Communazi…) and socialism has undermined our health and education systems.

        I’ll try to proof read myself better but perhaps I need glasses as well :D

  51. Alan,

    I thought this was a good overview of capitalism as well. http://www.conservapedia.com/Capitalism

    Have you read Atlas Shrugs, by Ayn Rand? It’s an interesting novel. Here’s some excerpts:

    http://www.conservapedia.com/Atlas_Shrugged

    http://www.conservapedia.com/Henry_Rearden

    http://www.conservapedia.com/John_Galt

    • “It’s an interesting novel.”

      Right, that means that it was a work of FICTION, not a book to derive one’s entire concept of politics & economics!

      • Lots of fiction is used for political thought. Starting with early Greek philosophers Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, and probably even before that. You really ought to try reading books, not just the crap you find on the web.

  52. Smile,

    I’ve never heard of Ayn Rand. I will check it out. On the second link which I posted I do not agree with 100% of it.

    http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/TragedyoftheCommons.html

    There are arguments near the end which could be used to justify the global warming scare. Unlike our friend Richard W. I do not just believe every source, that even I post.

    I lean towards classic literature. The older the better. I am a fan of the 18th century English critic Samuel Johnson, who while he had a lot of faults, did not blindly accept very much. When you get past his love of obscure words, you find a method that hates hypocrisy and relentlessly pursues truth and clarity.

    Clarity is important as you try to sift through the deliberate clouds of misinformation that President Obama spews out daily. I rely on people like Napolitano and Krauthammer to translate Obamaspeak in to coherent English.

  53. Well, I think this posting from a while back got lost in a spam filter somewhere, so I’ll try & be briefer here:

    “there has been no attached punishment to your so called crime.”

    Tell that to these people:
    “Twenty-two year old Raymond Hunter Geisel has been held without bail in Florida after allegedly threatening to assassinate Barack Obama and George W. Bush.”
    concreteloop.com/2008/08/news-roundup-man-threatens-to-kill-obama-bush-kilpatrick-in-jail-jena-judge-recused

    “A man on Monday was arrested and was being charged with making a verbal threat against U.S. President George W. Bush outside the fence at the White House, the Secret Service said.

    ‘We had an individual arrested for making a threat against the president on the fence line,’ said Malcolm Wiley, a spokesman for the Secret Service. ‘He left behind a suspicious package.'”
    http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2848993920080128

    “Federal authorities have charged a Louisiana man with threatening to kill President Bush.”
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/13/bush.threat.arrest/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

    “An Indian graduate student in the US who posted inflammatory messages on an internet bulletin board has been arrested and charged
    with threatening to kill President Bush, First Lady Laura Bush, Vice-president Dick Cheney and top Republican leaders.”
    timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1495553.cms?headline=Desi~arrested~for~threatening~Bush

    “Man Arrested For Telling His Girlfriend He Was Going To Kill Bush”
    http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/251175/Man_Arrested_For_Telling_His_Girlfriend_He_Was_Going_To_Kill_Bush

    “Charles E. Fuller pled guilty to one count of threatening to kill President George W. Bush in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 871.”
    openjurist.org/387/f3d/643/united-states-v-e-fuller

    “TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 41 > § 871
    Threats against President and successors to the Presidency”
    www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000871—-000-.html

    “Since Mr Obama took office, the rate of threats against the president has increased 400 per cent from the 3,000 a year or so under President George W. Bush, according to Ronald Kessler, author of In the President’s Secret Service.”
    crooksandliars.com/john-amato/president-obama-faces-increase-400-deat

    No crime or punishment eh?? NOT!

    • what are you talking about?

  54. “And if you look at nature, you will see that nature and natural selection have a lot more in common with capitalism than with socialism and communism. Socialism and communism are unnatural”

    Ahhhh, and once again we see the feeble-minded trying to equate the laws & theories of *science* with their own Right-wing belief system that is purely based on worshiping the almighty “market”.

    • The only feeb I see here is you, Mr. Guy. Nature has been functioning pretty well for quite a while, human civilization for a much shorter period of time, and probably not quite so well. Socialism and communism do seek to subvert nature, it’s quite obvious, and markets are quite a bit like nature, which is also obvious. And you are a fucking moron, just like commie-boy. Are you two related? Maybe you are married!

      • “markets are quite a bit like nature”

        …in your own wild, religious, Right-wing belief system that is. Markets are purely a creation of man…they are NOT “natural”.

  55. “He’s a troll/posts as various fellow travelers”

    I agree…and I don’t feed the obvious trolls here, period.

    “It’s obviously unproductive to continue to give him time and print space”

    LOL…ahhh, the time honored tradition of attempting to limit debate by “banning” the ones that you disagree with. I could cite many, many Right-wing blogs that have succumb to this line of “thinking”, and all of them are now basically defunct. Don’t do it.

    “He won’t like it and will continue to ask questions and/or accuse others of ‘not being able’ to respond to him effectively”

    …just like other trolls, that have been here much longer than him, do here incessantly.

    • Mr Guy, you are one of the biggest pieces of troll bait ever born, but keep denying this! You are troll dinner. Yum.
      As far as limiting debate, the right wing has nothing on the left, go disagree with some people on DailyKos and see how quickly you get knocked off. The groupthink is amazing.
      Which reminds me, I need to go up there and start a poll asking when Elizabeth Edwards will finally die of terminal breast cancer… Perhaps I’ll start a deathpool…

      • “Mr Guy, you are one of the biggest pieces of troll bait ever born”

        …in your own warped mind that is…lol…

        “As far as limiting debate, the right wing has nothing on the left, go disagree with some people on DailyKos and see how quickly you get knocked off.”

        Once again Taco, I have NEVER posted anything on Kos…keep dreaming though. The only websites that I have personally ever seen try & cut off debate from those that they disagree with are Right-wing websites.

        “Which reminds me, I need to go up there and start a poll asking when Elizabeth Edwards will finally die of terminal breast cancer… Perhaps I’ll start a deathpool…”

        Ahhh…yet another shining example of that famed “compassionate conservatism”…lol…

  56. President Obama has called the rise in health care costs a threat to the American economy. He plans to solve it with Obama care, but how does he know whether it will work? Many of us have pointed out health care by government in other countries and it’s many flaws.

    Some would argue that Obama care is different than in Canada, the UK, etc. Since Obama care isn’t finalized, it’s hard to argue against it’s details. The central point that Democrats make is that government dictated health care will control costs.

    There are examples of government controlled health care in the US. Namely in New England. So how is that working out?

    According to National Review, “Health care costs more in New England than it does anywhere else in the country.Insurance companies have fled the region, leading to less competition and higher premiums.”

    This history is a great guide to what will happen to the entire country when Obama care is actually in practice. The costs will be higher than projected. The benefits will be cut. Excise taxes on goods that the poor and middle class use will go through the roof. Remember the poor and middle class, the ones Obama said would not have their taxes raised.

  57. “Lots of fiction is used for political thought. Starting with early Greek philosophers Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, and probably even before that.”

    Works of fiction are, by definition, an imaginative creation or a pretense that does NOT represent actuality but has been invented. They are also frequently based on LIES and content that is produced by the imagination and is NOT necessarily based on fact.

    Now name three purely works of fiction by Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle Taco.

    • Everything they wrote about metaphysics. It’s as non-fiction as the bible. and pretty much anything Aristotle wrote about women.

      • Thanks for NOT living up to my challenge of “naming three purely works of fiction by Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle Taco.” I knew you would drop the ball Taco…ugh…what a joke you really are…it’s just more blowhard hot air over & over again with the likes of you…all bravdo & no meat, ever…

  58. “Sources?”

    Some private sector job creation facts by U.S. Presidents:
    “In 1992, 10 million Americans were unemployed, the country faced record deficits, and poverty and welfare rolls were growing. Family incomes were losing ground to inflation and jobs were being created at the slowest rate since the Great Depression.” (that was under GHWB BTW)

    “Most New Jobs Ever Created Under a Single Administration: The economy has created more than 22.5 million jobs in less than eight years—the most jobs ever created under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous 12 years. Of the total new jobs, 20.7 million, or 92 percent, are in the private sector.” (that was under Clinton BTW)

    clinton5.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishments/eightyears-03.html

    “Highest Share of New Jobs in Private Sector in 50 Years. Since the President and Vice President took office, the private sector has added 16.7 million new jobs–with 2.4 million jobs added in the past year. Since 1993, 92 percent of the 18.2 million new jobs have been in the private sector–the highest percentage in 50 years.” (that was under Clinton BTW)

    “After losing 662,000 construction jobs between 1989 and 1992, 1.7 million new construction jobs have been added under the President and Vice President’s leadership–a faster annual rate than any other Administration since President Truman.” (another contrast between GHWB & Clinton)

    “After losing 2.1 million manufacturing jobs between 1981 and 1992, the economy has created 350,000 new manufacturing jobs since 1993. After losing 46,000 jobs in the auto industry during the Bush Administration, the United States has 147,000 new auto industry jobs under the Clinton-Gore Administration.” (yet another contrast between your hero Reagan, GWHB, and Clinton)

    clinton4.nara.gov/textonly/WH/Work/040299.html

    “President George W. Bush will leave office today with the worst employment-growth record of any president since World War II, according to a new analysis.

    The nation’s job base grew at an annual rate of 0.28 percent during Bush’s eight years as president — by far the slowest pace for any of the 11 presidents in the postwar era.

    The previous low had been set by Bush’s father, George H.W. Bush, whose administration saw an annual job-growth rate of 0.59 percent.”

    “The administration with the strongest growth rate since World War II was that of Lyndon Johnson, who served between November 1963 and January 1969. Employment increased at an annual pace of 3.74 percent during that period.”

    “The nation suffered losses of construction jobs under two presidents: Gerald Ford (down 3.75 percent per year between 1974 and 1977) and George H.W. Bush (down 3.22 percent per year).”

    “Total employment

    • 1. Lyndon Johnson (1963-69), 3.74 percent

    • 2. Jimmy Carter (1977-81), 3.11 percent

    • 3. Bill Clinton (1993-2001), 2.42 percent

    • 4. Harry Truman (1945-53), 2.38 percent”

    All Dems!

    charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2009/01/19/daily13.html

    “Over the course of President Bush’s five years in office, his Administration has the worst overall job creation record since Herbert Hoover more than 70 years ago.”

    “Private sector job creation has been especially poor during the Bush presidency, with an average annual job growth rate of just 0.3 percent per year since 2001.”

    democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-new.cfm?doc_name=fs-109-2-96

    “IT is not exactly a distinction that he had in mind, but seven years into his presidency, George W. Bush is in line to be the first president since World War II to preside over an economy in which federal government employment rose more rapidly than employment in the private sector.

    That is not because federal government jobs have risen at an unusually rapid rate over the last seven years — although the increase did reverse a substantial decline under Mr. Bush’s most recent predecessor, Bill Clinton.”

    “The administration of Dwight Eisenhower currently ranks next to last in that regard, with a 0.50 percent annual rate of growth. It was damaged by a 1.8 percent decline in jobs in 1960, his final year in office, when a recession was one factor in his party’s loss of the White House.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/business/09charts.html

  59. Mister Guy:
    Your carefully researched information is a welcome relief from the nonsense and unreliable delusional comments that so frequently are produced at this site!
    The Conservative Republicans and their Libertarian allies are so much removed from rational and logical thinking, that they will I am sure, dismiss all of your detailed and verifiable information as being the opposite of what it is.
    The “private sector” of our global economy can do “no wrong,” according to those that are infatuated with the “private sector” and therefor are blind to it’s despicable actions, that are inflicted against the people, and against our society, as a whole. …”Love is Blind!”
    “The Public Sector,” and not the “Private Sector” is always depicted by the “Right Wingers” and the “Libertarians,” .. As the villains, of every wrong doing perpetrated on the people in our capitalist society.

    • Dude, get off the dole. I’m not getting fair value on what I pay for your welfare. Get a job and contribute. I know you are faking the mental disability to get the welfare checks.

  60. First, we would have to look at what we’re calling jobs.

    I don’t mind if you want to give gov’t credit for creating your job. Gov’t deserves credit for some things. The thing is, regardless of who is in office, jobs are created by the private sector that produce a profit to sustain themselves and the economy. Gov’t on the other hand, produces what is mostly positions. These positions are maintained by those who have jobs in the private sector.

    More to my point though, I really don’t care what they’re called, from whence they come, or to whom goes the credit, as long as it’s successful. One is a proven success. The other is a proven failure. This isn’t a personal reflection on either of you. Just a statement to reflect that it’s not a good idea to spend another hundred years chasing down that old path.

    I assume you’re both sincere, as am I. We’re at a time where we can’t afford experiments. Perhaps there are times when experiments are more affordable. If not, one needs to regroup. The best avenue for rebuilding is down the sure and proven path.

    Thanks fellas, for your input. It’s been interesting.
    Say, have a good one and we’ll probably converse in next posting.

  61. “you forgot Reagan, fucktard!”

    No, I didn’t moron…since I guess you forgot this FACT Taco (no surprise there):
    “After losing 2.1 million manufacturing jobs between 1981 and 1992, the economy has created 350,000 new manufacturing jobs since 1993. After losing 46,000 jobs in the auto industry during the Bush Administration, the United States has 147,000 new auto industry jobs under the Clinton-Gore Administration.” (yet another contrast between your hero REAGAN, GWHB, and Clinton)”

    BTW, despite the spin from the your buddies at the Right-wing National Review, your Lord & Savior St. Reagan is 7th on the list of annual employment-growth rates (behind Nixon & JFK, who didn’t even have a full-term!)

    “7. Ronald Reagan (1981-89), 2.04 percent

    8. Gerald Ford (1974-77), 0.95 percent

    9. Dwight Eisenhower (1953-61), 0.87 percent

    10. George H.W. Bush (1989-93), 0.59 percent”

    charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2009/01/19/daily13.html

    “Obungler is second place for losing the most :) he’s lost more than Bush”

    …and his term is not even a year old yet…real “fair” comparison there, not! What happened to all the disaster talk about the stock market earlier this year from your GOPers?? Now that the economy is obviously turning around, and the recession will soon be officially declared over & done with…not a peep from you nay-sayers about how great a job Obama is doing. What a surprise! Employment numbers are ALWAYS a lagging economic indicator. As I’ve been saying for almost a full year now, just wait until the economy comes roaring back in 2010.

    • Roaring back, right. The tards you elected can’t even count or recognize real congressional districts. They can’t even keep publicity seekers out of their little soiree. Obama has done nothing to help anything, he’s weak and indecisive, and always counts on others to carry the water for him.
      One-term wonder, jobless recovery.

      • “The tards you elected can’t even count or recognize real congressional districts.”

        Wrong again wing-nut…it was the people in the field that were filling out those recovery forms that didn’t know which Congressional district they were in. All of that is being fixed right now, and it affected very, very little of the stimulus money.

        “Obama has done nothing to help anything, he’s weak and indecisive, and always counts on others to carry the water for him”

        …in your own, wildly-biased opinion that is…

        “One-term wonder, jobless recovery.”

        LOL…once again…in your wildest dreams that is. The recovery has barely even started moron…only the most closed-mined Right-wing partisan would declare it a failure before it’s even begun!

        Once again Taco…you’ve been schooled…lol…

  62. So while we are comparing the economic records of Presidents, how about we throw everybody in to the mix and bring in extenuating circumstances.

    During President Bush’s Presidency unemployment went from 4% to 8.1%. So what were Bush’s extenuating circumstances.

    Barney Frank protecting Fannie and Freddie, all but guaranteeing a Bank meltdown.

    High energy prices caused by Democrats blocking energy production in America.

    Oh yes, then there was that little thing called 911.

    Now let us look at the current Obama record.

    Unemployment has gone from 8.1% to over 10% in 10 months.

    Extenuating circumstances.

    It was all Bush’s fault.

    Now let’s look at the real heroes. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. Since they have run Congress unemployment has gone from 4.6 % to 10.2%.

    Extenuating circumstances.

    They love pork.

  63. America can only take back her economy next November when we vote out everyone, Republican and Democrat, who sponsored and went along with this enromous spending spree.Until then we must just suffer and pray that our dollar doesn’t collapse and America doesn’t become a third world nation.

    • Welcome to Daddyland, Glenn.

      (BTW, your blog looks interesting, though I haven’t had a chance to read it yet.)

      • Wow, we’ll have to get rid of them all because they are all guilty!

  64. MrGuy, you are such a deluded fool.

    The ‘recovery’ happened back around Memorial Day. Remember the “green shoots” everybody was talking about? That was the economy trying to heal itself, as is its wont.

    And then came the flood of cheap Federal paper, which has sucked all the liquidity out of the capital markets. Add to that the paralysis of business staring into the abyss of healthcare mandates and cap-n-trade, and you have stagnation.

    But Ogabe can come up with is fanciful numbers of jobs “created or saved.” Meanwhile the dollar tanks and foreign investment (and domestic capital) are flowing to Asia. Christ, even if you believe the WH’s jiggered numbers, the Porkulus spent over 1.2 million bucks for each of those jobs “created or saved.”

    Give it up. Ogabe, who has never held a real job or accomplished anything meaningful in his life, is just as clueless on economics as he is on military matters- and in his blundering arrogance would be even if he had econ advisors of the caliber of Petraeus and McChrystal to ignore, rather than Keynesian schlemiels. The only beneficiaries of Ogabe’s ‘recovery plan’ have been unions, and Geitner’s own Goldman Sachs. And in the meantime, government spending has rocketed to a European-level 46% of GDP, even before socialized medicine and Taxman-Malarkey.

    Just admit it. Your Anointed One is an empty suit, a conceited windbag who don’t know nuthin’ but Chicago-style political graft.

    • “The ‘recovery’ happened back around Memorial Day.”

      No, it’s only just begun very, very recently. Try looking at some GDP stats for a change wing-nut.

      “And then came the flood of cheap Federal paper, which has sucked all the liquidity out of the capital markets.”

      LOL…the value of the U.S. Dollar was ruined, in large part, through the complete mismanagement of fiscal/monetary policy under GWB, period.

      “Add to that the paralysis of business staring into the abyss of healthcare mandates”

      This is just more, blind, Right-wing fear-mongering. True universal health care will relieve a HUGE burden on U.S. businesses.

      “But Ogabe”

      Nice racial slur there ditto-head…ugh…

  65. Bohemond ,

    “MrGuy, you are such a deluded fool.”

    You are hitting him with more facts than he can handle. His usual MO is to deny obvious truths and then take his crayons and run away.

  66. The crazy talk by the “repugnants” of taking back the country and restoring economic discipline by reducing govt. spending and eliminating social programs and safety nets for those that are the victims of Wall Street abuse is as crazy as it gets!
    To think that the conservative right wing talking points, will return the conservative right wingers to power, is a delusion of the highest order.
    The Republicans had lost and are loosing their political power, not because they had not been economicaly conservative enough, under the Bush Regime. But because the conservative philosophy has no appeal to those that are young first time voters.
    The Democrats won the presidential election because they represented the values that appealed to those that are young and smart and are looking forward to a more relevant future.
    The tired and worn out economic philosophy of unrestrained unregulated capitalism has been thoroughly exposed under the Bush regime as being responsable for our current economic problems, and to avoid in the future of making the same mistake, the new generation of enlightened voters will no longer tollerate conservative economics.
    The scare tactics of the republicans with regard to getting voters to hate and fear those that look and vote different than the conservative base, … is no longer a winning tactic, as it was in the past.
    The Republican Party has become a separatist party wth it’s feet firmly planted in the no longer relevant past.
    When the Democrats realize what their opposition has become, perhaps they will no longer feel the need to compromise with this dying breed of a know nothing party.

  67. “The Democrats won the presidential election because they represented the values that appealed to those that are young and smart and are looking forward to a more relevant future.”

    What piffle! Rather, those who are young and immature and selfish: the liberal message is perfectly attuned to the adolescent I-wanna-pony mindset, with no appreciation for cost, responsibility or thrift.

    “The tired and worn out economic philosophy of unrestrained unregulated capitalism has been thoroughly exposed under the Bush regime as being responsable for our current economic problems”

    Nor do adolescents understand economics, as you so plainly show. Ladies and gentleman, read this child’s post carefully: THIS is the Useful Idiot the leftists exploit.

  68. Despicable,

    “The Republicans had lost and are loosing their political power, not because they had not been economicaly conservative enough, under the Bush Regime. But because the conservative philosophy has no appeal to those that are young first time voters.”

    So then you have nothing to worry about. But, then why are you scared?

  69. Alan, I am not scared!! … I am very positive about the future, because the voters have finaly learned from the mistakes of the past, and it seems that they are no longer willing to repeat those mistakes.
    The moderates in the republican party have left the ranks of the republican party in droves, because they feel no longer welcome, in a republican party of right wing extremism.
    The remaining members of out of touch “Rightie Extremists” in the Republican party, will be ignored by the electorate, and they will all die and go to a Right Wing Hell, that is inhabited by their comrades of the “KU Klux Klan!”
    It is written in the “Book of Future Events,” that the “Democratic Party” will become in the near future the party of moderation, and that a new political party will emerge as a competing mainstream party that will have a strong Left wing progressive orientation.
    The history of the world is the history of …that which is no longer relevant and tied to the past, dying … and thus making it possible for that which is progressive and relevant to the changing times, to enter on to the stage of our modern day realty.
    Like they say…. “YOU CAN’T STOP PROGRESS!”

  70. Mr. Walters,

    It is true that your Socialist heroes Pelosi, Reid, and Obama control the known universe, for now. They will only have absolute control as long as things go well for the economy. Unfortunately things are not going well at the moment.

    They are fast running out of time to turn things around. Very soon blaming Bush for everything will stop working.

    Here are a couple of questions, if you actually have the guts to answer me. Do you believe in these numbers of jobs created or saved? Where are the 5 million green jobs, cause I want one?

  71. Alan, If you open your eyes and your mind you will see and understand that the Obama Administration is attempting to save your beloved Capitalist System from those that are intent on destroying it by their greed for money and power and uncaring attitude about the well being of the system, as they gamble with peoples lives so that they can make a killing on the stock market and at their place of business.
    The problems that the Obama administration inheirited from the (Bush no oversite administration,) was unprecidented in modern times. To fix this Republican mess will I am sure take a long time and a much longer time than expected because of the lack of patriotism and cooperation of those that call themselves Republicans.
    Lets face it! …You and your Republican friends are not the least bit interested in the Obama Administration cleaning up the mess that your Republican friends created. …You and every other Right Wing traitors would like Obama and the democrats to fail so that you can once again gain power and continue to practice your unethical grab for the all mighty dollar, and the “public be damned!”
    To answer your question… The 5 million green jobs created or saved are an estimation that can become a reality if the entire nation comes together and works toward that end. But unfortunately the republicans are more interested in having Obama and the democrats failing, than having the nation succeed.

  72. Mr. Walters,

    You could work for Obama. You wrote many words and said almost nothing, but you did confirm what I already knew. You guys will continue to blame Bush for your guy’s failures.

    Obama made many promises coming in. He was going to save us from everything Bush did wrong. Well, it’s been 11 months and things have only gotten worse.

    Actually the 5 million green jobs are totally separate from the 150,000 jobs as of June that were saved or created. I wanted to know if you believed the 150,000 job figure, I don’t.

    It is an unprovable piece of Bull. The 5 million green jobs were what Candidate Obama promised before the election.

    “The 5 million green jobs created or saved are an estimation that can become a reality if the entire nation comes together and works toward that end.”

    You really should go to the liberal blogs. They make the same excuses you do. They called Obama’s failed promises merely predictions, now you call them estimations.

    When your hero was in front of cheering thousands, during the election, telling them how his hope and change would make their lives better, do you think they were expecting estimations or results?

    Obama said he wanted the job. He said he could handle it. He knew what the problems were. All he does is blame Bush.

    I’ll say one thing, your guy sure knows how to spend other people’s money.

  73. Alan, it has been said that when you have extreme hatred you become blind and not objective with regard to the object of your hatred.
    Your words, Alan, exposes you and also those that are your fellow travelers, to the accusation that you are blind, not only to the facts that are apparent, but you are also blind, to the sanity of not recognizing that what is insane!
    It is crazy to expect that what was promised by president Obama could be accomplished in the first year of the Obama presidency. Only a nut could and would have this expectancy! Especially, because of the extensive damage to our economy and our nation by the “government haters” of the Bush regime.
    The republican right wing opposition to the democrats generaly and to Obama particularly is so unprecidented in it’s unreasonableness that the question must be asked if this fierce opposition is something that is personal and bigoted.
    Bigots will always object to this accusation of being bigoted, but the extreme insane opposition that is unpreceidented in American politics, leads those that are not bigoted to come to this conclusin.

  74. Mr. Walters,

    “It is crazy to expect that what was promised by president Obama could be accomplished in the first year of the Obama presidency”

    Ok,,,,just when will we see Obama’s promises kept? He was the one who raised expectations very high. Also remember, since we are comparing him to Bush, at this time in his Presidency Bush was dealing with the economic effects of 911 and all of the subsequent security scares. Obama has faced none of that.

    Also Bush never had the overwhelming majorities in both Houses of Congress that Obama has now. Democrats were able to block much of Bush’s initiatives. You guys never admit that.

    Republicans can’t stop anything that Obama wants. Only Democrats can do that.

    Again just how much time should we give Obama, to come through on his policies?

  75. “Republicans can’t stop anything that Obama wants. Only Democrats could do that!”
    You said a mouthful, Alan!
    … It is so true that “Conservative Democrats” will screw up the programs and policies of the Democrats just like the Conservative Republicans are destroying the “Republican party” by compromising the natural tendency of their Republican base to move backward into the no longer relevant past.
    There comes a time in politics and in life when “compromise becomes “SELL OUT!”
    The “Middle Of The Road” conservatives, have no loyalty to anything or anybody. They are only in politics to feather their nest. They believe in nothing and will sell out to lobyists for personal gain. They are now and have always been “OPPORTUNISTS of the worst sort!
    It is because of the “Middle Of The Road” centrists in both the democrat and republican party, that their deffinately will be a “Political Realignment,” in our good old American political system!
    The Republican Party, as it is now constituted will go out of existence because it is too far away from the beliefs of the American public. It is no longer relevant to our present and to what will be our future!
    The “Democrat Party” will be compromised by the Centrists and made to become the new more relevant conservative party.
    A new political party will enter into the mainstream that will represent our aspirations for a progressive and more social future.
    This will all be written in the “Book of Future Events!”

  76. Mr. Walters,

    “It is so true that “Conservative Democrats” will screw up the programs and policies of the Democrats just like the Conservative Republicans are destroying the “Republican party” by compromising the natural tendency of their Republican base to move backward into the no longer relevant past.”

    You and I are polar opposites, so it is a little amusing to hear you complain about Conservative Democrats thwarting the Obama agenda. We Conservative Republicans have just as much anger towards Liberal Republicans, selling us out.

    I do not think you are aware of certain facts. One of the reason’s for the Democrat’s overwhelming majorities in both Houses is that your Democratic Party recruited Conservative Democrats to run in Conservative States and Districts to knock off vulnerable Republicans in the last couple of elections. Liberal-Progressive Democrats could not have won in a lot of those places.

    To now complain that those Conservative Democrats are betraying the cause is misreading the politics of the moment. The first job of any politician is not to serve his country. It is not even to serve the folks who voted for him. His first job is to get reelected. That is the unfortunate reality.

    The Democrats, who you are furious about, are from Conservative areas. Pelosi, Reid, and Obama’s legislation is a political death sentence to many of them.

    As far as the death of the Conservative Republican Party, we should make some kind of non-monetary wager on that. I am surprised that someone of your age has not learned from history.

    Just as when Conservatives ran the country, it was the liberal Neo-Communist wing of the Democratic Party that had the energy and passion to select Pelosi, Reid, and Obama to bring it back to power, the Conservatives in the Republican Party are the ones with the fire in the belly.

    The blue blood, middle of the road, moderates in the Republican Party are too interested in being liked by the lapdog press to generate what is necessary to get back in to power.

    The next two elections will show which one of us knows what he is talking about.

  77. “The Republican Party, as it is now constituted will go out of existence because it is too far away from the beliefs of the American public” (Richard Walters)

    You are correct! The Republican party has moved so far left that they have lost touch with middle America; which is, always has been, and always will be CONSERVATIVE.

    The “Conservative” Democrats you rail against are, as Alan pointed out, from middle America the only reason they got elected is because they did not have an “R” after their name, it had NOTHING to do with Chairman MaObama or his Marxist policies, it was a message to Washington D.C that the “R” and the “D” are no longer different (sorry Alan, I know we disagree on that point) and the “average” citizen is voting for the issues not for a party.

  78. DJ,

    As much as the Republicans have disappointed you, me, and all caring Americans, they are the only game in town. I prefer being blunt, even to my friends. The Democratic Party is entrenched. They have bought off so many people that they ain’t going anywhere. You can rail all you want about both parties. If you want change, what are you going to do?

    What vehicle will you use to fight the Democrats who rule over us? You can give up. You can go third party, which has never worked. You can take back the Republican Party and use it like Reagan did to win. This means not voting for the kind of Republicans who betray their party. It would also mean voting for Conservative Democrats, but at least in the Senate, guys like Nelson of Nebraska have proven that they are just as crooked as their liberal brethren.

    I have followed politics since the early 1970s. History constantly repeats itself. The only way for the ruling party to leave, is for the other party to throw them out. It’s how the pendulum works.

    • Alan,

      I agree. My point is the Republican party is not much different than the Democrats. Regarding the “Health care” legislation, I could not find a single Republican plan that had a conservative values in it, each one I saw only slowed the growth of government involvement. Where was the plan that said “government get the hell out of the way?” or “Remove all prohibitions from buying insurance from another State?” There were none.

      As far as “…what are you going to do?” I have written my State legislators (again), this time reminding them of the Ninth and Tenth amendments, I sent them copies of the 1798 Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions so they know their is precedent for one of the several States to nullify Federal law.

      I too have followed politics for many many years, and I am aware that we need to vote out the Marxist Democrats, I just do not see that many conservative Republicans (or Democrats for that matter) and with a huge majority of middle Americans being Conservative, it baffles me that the candidates the GOP throws out there are so far to left, Dede Scozzafava (NY23) is a great example, Charlie Christ is another, and now we got this Parker Griffith dude switching parties. I heard earlier today he voted 86% of the time with the Democrats, but he becomes a Republican on the Health care issue. The parties are so closely aligned that an 86% voter can just roll to the other party because of his values? Assuming he gets reelected to the House, how can he be trusted to support a conservative principles?

      Rebuilding the party is a novel concept, I just think there are too many in the GOP hierarchy that have attached themselves to the left.

      • “I have written my State legislators (again), this time reminding them of the Ninth and Tenth amendments, I sent them copies of the 1798 Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions so they know their is precedent for one of the several States to nullify Federal law”

        …and, let me guess, you didn’t get the response that you were looking for, because you are completely wrong on this issue, period.

        “with a huge majority of middle Americans being Conservative”

        …which isn’t true at all, of course.

        “it baffles me that the candidates the GOP throws out there are so far to left, Dede Scozzafava (NY23) is a great example”

        Indeed, that race was an *excellent example* of where the GOP may be heading (I hope!). Just about every time that the “Club for Growth” wing-nuts get involved in a race, they end up electing a Democrat. Recently, there were extremely “effective” at getting a solidly GOP NY U.S. House seat (since almost the Civil War!) to go over to the Democrats! Go Tea Baggers go!

  79. DJ,

    This summer will be interesting. The Democrats will spend it selling Obama-care to the public. If they succeed Republicans won’t gain much in the mid terms. Much also depends on how fast the economy recovers. Right now investors are doing well, but jobs are still lagging.

    After running up the biggest deficits in memory, Democrats will make cutting those same deficits a priority. Look for more tax increases on the rich and more sin taxes. More taxes on any industry that can’t pay enough protection money, like what happened to the tanning booth industry.

    It won’t be hard to catch Obama Inc. in lies. The question is whether Republicans will stay strong and not be bought off by pork.

  80. It seems that the right wing base of the republican party is confused as to where the majority of people that call themselves “Republicans” are now moving towards.
    At the best of times the base of the Republican Party has only represented 30% of the republican party. The 70% of Republicans that no longer feel the hate and fear that is generated by the Republican base, towards minorities and those of different religions. The Ideas promoted by “Religious Fundamentalism” is too similar to that which is promoted by the “Taliban” to be acceptable to most thinking Republicans!
    The economic ideas of conservative “Libertarians” are not attractive to Moderate Republicans. The position taken by the Republican Base on “torture” has turned off most Moderates toward the Republicans, and they have joined the Democrats as a consequence, The followers of Reganism feel alienated from the ideology of the “Republican Base.” And all of these “lost souls” will join the Democrats or stay home and not vote.
    If the “Left Wing Base” of the Democrats split and start a Third Party, the moderates will swarm into the ranks of the more relevant democrats and the right wing republican base will join the ranks of those that are a part of our dead, (no longer relevant ) past!
    The “Republican Party” will become a part of our past history, and the “south will never rise again!”


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