How to Undermine the Economy

If you wanted to come up with a plan to undermine the economy of the most prosperous and successful nation on earth, how would you go about it?

The first thing you’d have to do would be to debase the underlying value system that provides the foundation for prosperity. That is, the value system to which the founders of this nation, and many generations of immigrants who came here seeking opportunity, subscribed. The core of that value system is the belief that you do not deserve anything you have not earned.

The first step would be to condition the populace to believe that prosperity is bad, that anybody who makes more than a modest income must be evil (or at least dishonest), and that nobody really deserves to be rich, no matter how much they contribute to the economy or how many opportunities they create for others. The rich, by definition, are always a minority, since the term itself implies someone who has substantially greater wealth than the average person. All that’s usually needed to turn the many against the few is a sense of grievance.

Fostering a sense of grievance can be accomplished by promoting the notion that everybody, by virtue of their very existence, is entitled to basic sustenance, such as healthcare, food, shelter, etc. This attitude can be cultivated by establishing a system of bureaucracies (paid for almost entirely by the rich) that provide free handouts to everybody else, while nurturing a sense of perpetual resentment among the people receiving the handouts toward those who provide the wherewithal to satisfy their ever-increasing expectations.

The many are not generally aware that nearly 90% of the income taxes that sustain our government, and all the services “it” provides, are collected from the top 20% of income earners. And, if the many were aware of that, do you think they’d feel like saying “Thank you”? Not likely. Because they’ve been conditioned to believe that the rich don’t deserve their wealth, and that they, the beneficiaries of all those taxes paid by the rich, deserve that money more than the people who earned it. What did the beneficiaries do to deserve it? Nothing. But they exist, and therefore they’re entitled to things they cannot afford, so the money should be taken from those who can afford it and redistributed to them.

Having undermined the cultural values that provide the basis for a prosperous economy, by fostering a culture of dependency on ever-expanding government services, you now have popular support for the next step, which is to penalize production. You do that by regulating industries to the point where the cost of doing business is too great to justify the returns, forcing businesses to either downsize, go bankrupt, or relocate offshore. That increases unemployment, creating an even greater dependency on government services. At the same time, it reduces production so there’s less wealth to tax, and less money coming into the system to support the ever-increasing demands.

At that point, you’ve got a self-perpetuating cycle, with ever-increasing demands on the system and ever-diminishing resources from which to draw to provide for them. To add fuel to the firestorm, you can use the increasing demands as an excuse to raise taxes on the remaining top producers even more, driving more employers out of business or offshore, creating an even larger non-productive class, and further accelerating the drain on the system…

But why stop there? At this point, the economy is so unstable, it can be toppled with ease. To finish it off in style, all that’s required is to spend like a drunken sailor. Get the nation so far in debt to hostile foreign powers that they won’t accept our IOUs any more. Print up fiat money and dilute our currency to the point that the whole world loses confidence in it and the G20 proposes a new international monetary standard. Then distract the citizens by holding contests in Congress to see who can spend money the fastest, and call it a “stimulus plan.”

At that point, the death spiral reaches critical mass. That’s where we are today. How did we get to this point? Well, it could just be a combination of entropy, ignorance, and well-intentioned idiots. Or it could be that there are those who actively seek to undermine our economy to bring our nation to its knees. For what purpose? That depends on who’s pulling the strings. I concede that this begins to sound a little paranoid from someone who usually dismisses conspiracy theories. On the other hand, it’s hard to imagine that anyone, especially the leaders of our nation, are stupid enough not to realize they’re doing the exact things required to accelerate the collapse of our already destabilized economy. And, if they’re not stupid, then they must have a reason for what they’re doing.


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  1. [...] presents How to Undermine the Economy posted at Government is not your Daddy., saying, “If you wanted to come up with a plan to [...]

  2. I took excerpts from the opening statement.

    “The first step would be to condition the populace to believe that prosperity is bad, that anybody who makes more than a modest income must be evil (or at least dishonest), and that nobody really deserves to be rich”

    “they, the beneficiaries of all those taxes paid by the rich, deserve that money more than the people who earned it.”

    “How did we get to this point? Well, it could just be a combination of entropy, ignorance, and well-intentioned idiots.”

    I love the last phrase, although I prefer ‘useful idiots’. These are the puppets controlled by the George Soros’s of the world.

    “On the other hand, it’s hard to imagine that anyone, especially the leaders of our nation, are stupid enough not to realize they’re doing the exact things required to accelerate the collapse of our already destabilized economy. And, if they’re not stupid, then they must have a reason for what they’re doing.”

    The reason is power. Our current rulers do not mind if they collapse the economy. They figure that they can manage it, at least for their lifetimes. They need to create large dependent classes. That is how they maintain control. Look how they control the elderly through SS and Medicare.

    It is not that they do not want wealthy people. They want wealthy people allied to them. They do not want wealthy people independent of them who could be a political threat. A past example of independent wealth threatening an oppressive central government would be the political leadership of the American Revolution.

    The Hugo Chavez’s and Fidel Castro’s of the world demonized the rich, but they are really not against the rich, as long as the rich are in their party and paying off. They have shown our leaders that just because you ruin your nation’s economy, it does not mean you can’t have a rewarding life.

  3. “On the other hand, it’s hard to imagine that anyone, especially the leaders of our nation, are stupid enough not to realize they’re doing the exact things required to accelerate the collapse of our already destabilized economy. And, if they’re not stupid, then they must have a reason for what they’re doing.”

    Our “leaders” are not stupid. They are doing exactly what was promised during the campaign-”Fundementally changing America”. Chairman Maobama spoke of it often during the campaign, he and his Chicago thugs are turning a once great REPUBLIC into coldwar Russia right before our eyes.

    Most of his “Czars” are avowed Communists, he surroinds himself with people of the same mindset he has. All the Presidents Czars are a government within the government, and at some point in the not to distant future, Chairman Maobama will cease to work through the Congress, and dictate through his (chosen) politburo.

    He has already started employing ACORN as his “National Defense Force”, SEIU is his “Labor” enforcement agency, and AMERICORP is his “Serve-or-Else” arm.

    Hard to believe that Cash for Clunkers, the Governments first attempt at selling cars, lastd only four days; it was intended to last four MONTHS! Does anyone really think the officals that thought 1 BILLION dollars would last four months have a freakin’ clue as to how much Obama’s single payer healthcare plan is going to cost? And yet “some” who comment on here think that the cost will go down, not a single governemt program EVER costs less than was forecast. Medicare is a prime example, the firast year cost for medicare was SEVEN times what the projections were. Chairman Maobama’s sinlge payer plan will cost at least seven times what is projected. Period end of story!

    UPDATE: This weekend, Dear leaders talking heads made the rounds of the talk shows and lo-and-behold, a Middle class tax hike is on the table! Yet another BROKEN PROMISE coming down the pipe.

  4. Let’s say NYD is exactly correct. No one “deserves” anything they didn’t earn. Human nature being what it is, though, an ever increasing gap between rich and poor still creates its own set of problems. I’d guess this is because most of the poor don’t enjoy being poor, even when they fully “deserve” it. Because of that human nature, perhaps right and wrong don’t really matter. Perhaps the “death spiral” that NYD talks about is inevitable. Perhaps you can always do the correct thing and still end up screwed. Maybe this is part of the reason why there has never been a government in the history of civilization that didn’t, sooner or later, come to an end. (Present company excepted, of course.)

    • Or perhaps the “poor” could improve their livelihood by taking responsibiltiy and improving themselves; perhaps by making better life choices, or advancing their education, nay, let them continue to blame the productive…its SO much easier.

  5. Wigglesworth,

    “Let’s say NYD is exactly correct.”

    Yea,,,,let’s say that.

    “an ever increasing gap between rich and poor still creates its own set of problems.”

    Why do you think this is “ever increasing”???

    What do you propose to do about this “ever increasing gap”??? Do you propose bringing the rich down to the poor folks level? That would indeed close the gap.

    In the current economic climate, why is it that states like Caleefornia which worry about the “ever increasing gap”, are doing far worse than states like say Texas who do not punish their wealthy for being successful?

    • Oh, I left out this little gem about Caleefornia. They even print their own money when they run out. Except they put the letters IOU on their money instead of dead Presidents.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/02/AR2009080201253.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

      “National parallels again seem apparent. Federal budget deficits — reflecting the urge to spend and not tax — predate the recession and, as baby boomers retire, will survive any recovery. Amazingly, the Obama administration would worsen the long-term outlook by expanding federal health insurance coverage. There’s much mushy thinking about how we’ll muddle through.

      “California has pioneered this sort of delusion.”

  6. You both missed the point.

  7. Wigglesworth,

    “You both missed the point.”

    AND the point was?????????

  8. The point is, “Boo hoo. Provide me with health care because I’m a good person. Don’t force me to get off my ass and find a real job, just let me sit here and weave baskets and be comfortable…and give me what I need. Boo hoo.”

  9. Apemantus,

    I yield the floor to one whose eloquence in expression surpasses my humble efforts.

  10. Should. Should, should, should. Should!

    As in: “We should all do the right thing. If we do, then the thing I want will come to pass.” Unfortunately, though, even if YOU do the right thing, you can’t force anyone around you do the right thing, so the thing you want may never come to pass.

    You can stand there crying “but it shouldn’t be this way” all you want until the cows come home but that won’t magically make the outcome change.

    If you pick a course of action because you think it is the right one but the resulting outcome isn’t what you expected and wanted, perhaps it is time to stop thinking your course of action was the right one.

    • Wigglesworth,

      “If you pick a course of action because you think it is the right one but the resulting outcome isn’t what you expected and wanted, perhaps it is time to stop thinking your course of action was the right one.”

      Based on your conclusion then, should Chairman Maobama quit pushing for his single payer health care plan since the VAST majority of Americans do not want it?

    • “you can’t force anyone around”
      Yes you can. The government does it all the time. They force people to give up their money by threat of jail. Now they are going ot force Americans to buy a product (health insurance) just for being born.
      When you have the power to tax AND the power of the gun behind you, you can do whatever you want.
      That, my friend, is why we as a country are in a lot of trouble, but everyone is too brainwashed by public education to think outside the box and figure it out.
      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. -H.L. Mencken

      The true danger is when Liberty is nibbled away, for expedients. -Edmund Burke (1899)

      Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. -Thomas Jefferson

      None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -Goethe

      Liberty is not a means to a political end. It is itself the highest political end. -Lord Acton

      The power to tax is the power to destroy. -John Marshall

      The government was set to protect man from criminals and the Constitution was written to protect man from the government. -Ayn Rand

      To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. -Thomas Jefferson

      We must have government, but we must watch them like a hawk. -Millicent Fenwick (1983)

      Useless laws weaken the necessary laws. -Montesquieu

  11. Damn, but this seems familiar. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it sounds a lot like one or two, or several, of our elected officials policies.

    I too am starting to be a bigger proponent of some of the more plausible Conspiracy Theories going around now. They just sound too good to just ignore.

  12. How can anyone actually believe that George Soros has furnished millions to “the one” out of some sincere interest in helping the lad along. A man of his wealth fully realizes that everything has a price and is willing to step up and pay it. Once the money has changed hands he will expect–no, demand, a return. If it alters the constitutional framework of our federal government he couldn’t care less. I wonder how much of his stock portfolio he shorted in anticipation of Obama’s action. I’ll bet is was measured in billions and not millions.

  13. George Soros is not only rich, he is old. He has plenty of money to last his lifetime. He has other motives for backing Obama Inc. and it’s subsidiaries Move On.org, ACORN, GE, etc.

  14. Those on this board who are in favor of Government run health care have still not given credible examples of it’s success anywhere in the world. Now just because they can not hold up their end in this most important discussion, does not mean that those of us who oppose Socialized Medicine cannot find plenty of examples of it’s failures.

    I offer this example of the financial failure of Socialized Medicine, which is what Obama-Care is. This is from an article in the Wall St. Journal dated today 8/7/09, entitled ” France Fights Universal Care’s High Cost” by David Gauthier-Villars.

    The article gives an example of a woman giving birth in a fire truck because cost cutting had shut down a local maternity ward. This year France’s Assurance Maladie will run a $13.5 billion deficit. As America moves toward French style socialized health care, Sarkozy is trying to move France toward American used methods to keep their system solvent.

    Sarkozy like previous French leaders is up against massive protests from the receivers of Medical welfare. This foreshadows what will happen in the US if future leaders attempt to roll back Obama-care once it is in place.
    —————————————————-

    Universal Health care is Socialism and it will bankrupt the United States. The Democrats cost estimates are worthless. One last thought on Socialism in general.

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_said_socialism_works_until_you_run_out_of_other_people's_money

    “Margaret Thatcher, in a television interview for Thames TV This Week on February 5, 1976. Prime Minister Thatcher said, “…and Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They [socialists] always run out of other people’s money. It’s quite a characteristic of them.””

  15. “…who are in favor of Government run health care have still not given credible examples of it’s success anywhere in the world.”

    That’s because there are NONE!

    IF one is of the assumption that our health care system is broken (debateable, yet I happen to agree with that it is), the most effective way to fix it is to give people more options. The biggest excuse I hear is “when I lose my job, I lose my coverage.” The simplest fix is to remove health care from the work place. No one looses auto insurance, or homeowners/renters insurance when they lose their job, why should health care insurance be any different?

  16. DJ,

    There are similarities between health care and car insurance. I recently had to get my kid off of my car insurance and had to make some hard choices to get the costs to her and me under control. By choosing high deductibles and opting for limited tort on one of the policies I got the costs down where they needed to be.

    Let’s compare this to health care. I am a fan of former Mass. Gov. Romney, but that does not keep me from saying he royally screwed everyone in his State with Romney-Care. Massachusetts mandates 43 coverages that some people might not need. In vitro fertilization is one that if you could opt out of would save you 5%. Lobbying by special interests is what drives the coverage mandates. Every provider of medical procedures lobbies for coverage.

    President Obama has created a lobbyist friendly environment. With the government taking an ever greater % of the economy over, every business, labor union, and bird watcher’s club will have to pay lobbyists just to protect themselves.

  17. I ran across this today and found it to be quite interesting;

    “The U.S. government is prepared to provide up to $10 billion in loans to finance the development of massive hydrocarbon reserves off Brazil’s coast, a Brazilian official said Wednesday” (Retrieved from http://www.laprensasa.com/2.0/3/309/279719/America-in-English/U-S-ready-to-finance-oil-drilling-in-Brazil.html).

    American tax dollars (which we don’t have) are going to fund a Brazilian OFFSHORE oil field, yet we can’t drill here, drill now? It seems that Chairman Maobama is only interested in saving the US environment,

    “…the Obama administration…blocked offshore drilling plans put in place at the last minute by the Bush administration, including plans to open the national outer continental shelf for drilling” (Retrieved from http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/11/drilling-ban-revisited/)

    Or perhaps (and much more likely) it is more important to keep the US reliant on foreign oil (in order to finish off our economy) when we easily have enough domestic reserves to last us for over 200 years!

    1) “…. and we now have access of up to 500 billion barrels.”

    2) “That’s enough crude to fully fuel the American economy for 41 years straight.”

    3) “4-20-6 Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world. It is more than 2 TRILLION barrels” (Retrieved from http://prismwebcastnews.com/2009/02/28/peak-oil-lie-us-has-utterly-giant-oil-reserves/).

    Think of the jobs that would be created HERE if we tapped what we have available, not to mention the boost to the economy. However, Chairman Maobama is working to undermine the economy, not stabilize and grow it!

    • As has been pointed out before, most of your links here don’t really work “DJ”.

      “Or perhaps (and much more likely) it is more important to keep the US reliant on foreign oil (in order to finish off our economy) when we easily have enough domestic reserves to last us for over 200 years!”

      This is completely hyperbole that has ZERO in the way of facts to support it…see below…

      “’4-20-6 Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world. It is more than 2 TRILLION barrels’”

      No, it isn’t. You have fallen prey to, yet again, another “conservative” e-mail chain that has little to no facts behind it.

      http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/bakken.asp

      An April 2008 USGS report estimated the amount of technically recoverable oil in the Bakken Formation at 3-4.3 billion barrels with a mean of 3.65 billion.

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakken_Formation

      “Bartis also cautioned that the technology to extract oil from the fields was not yet commercially viable and said that even ‘under high growth assumptions, an oil shale production level of 1 million barrels per day is probably more than 20 years in the future, and 3 million barrels per day is probably more than 30 years into the future.’”

      http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/community-news/bakken-oil-drilling-55031701

      http://www.green-planet-solar-energy.com/bakken-oil.html

      “What any interested party should understand, however, is the huge difference between ‘technically recoverable oil’ and ‘practical oil recovery’. Practical oil recovery must accommodate current and anticipated technologies, drilling and completion costs, operating costs, oil price and local, state and federal regulations. The ‘practical oil recovery’ amount for the Bakken is probably more like 500 million barrels of oil.”

      http://www.examiner.com/x-2950-Denver-Energy-Industry-Examiner~y2009m3d16-Reports-of-Bakken-Shale-oil-reserves-are-the-stuff-of-urban-legends

      Oil sands are NOT oil shale BTW, and oil sand production is very expensive & dirty.

      “Think of the jobs that would be created HERE if we tapped what we have available”

      Ummmm, they are already tapping into the Bakken oil shale reserve, and the results have been less than impressive. The money & the technology just aren’t there, period.

      The thing to remember about these wild “new oil discovery” claims is that big numbers are almost always cited to begin with, and then no one pays attention when the real estimates come in at a much, much lower number. The Right-wing LOVES to exploit people (like “DJ”) on this issue.

  18. DJ,

    I knew that Brazil had found 2 deep sea oil deposits. I did not think they needed the out side financing, but obviously they do. The Chinese financing may be a reason the US is involved. China is in a scrample to nail down future global oil supplies. The few adults in the Obama administration may have wanted to counter what the Chinese are doing. I can’t figure what other reasons there might be.

    I always find it amusing how they say we are running out of oil and then Brazil or somebody else finds more.

    We always have to remember that President Obama is beholding to his left wing base. If he allows conventional energy production in this country to expand, he would save the economy and his Presidency, but that would alienate the morons who put him in office. He has already angered them over the detainee photos.

    Check that second link you posted. When I click, it goes to a story on Israel and the Palestinians.

  19. DJ,

    Actually it is your third link that goes to the wrong address.

    • Alan,

      I just clicked it and got the same sight you mentioned. I put US oil reserves in GOOGLE’s search box and This:

      #
      Peak Oil Lie? US Has Utterly Giant Oil Reserves » Prism Webcast News
      Feb 28, 2009 … U. S. Oil Discovery – Largest Reserve In The World! Stansberry Report Online – 4-20-6 Hidden 1000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky …
      prismwebcastnews.com/…/peak-oil-lie-us-has-utterly-giant-oil-reserves/ – Cached – Similar
      #

      is the 6th result that shows up, clicking on the title still goes to the story.

      I hope that helps :)

  20. DJ,

    I’ve tried to go to the site you mentioned and could not. Whenever I use any link that has Stansberry in it, the link fails. I am guessing that this is referring to the Bakken oil shale deposit.

    If it is the Bakken oil field you are talking about, it is not so simple. Oil shale generally has a low energy density compared to crude oil. It can require expensive extraction and processing. That said, it probably makes more sense than most of “green”technology that the spendocrats are subsidizing.

  21. Alan,

    The article did not reference the Bakken or shale, although I do believe the Bakken is a valid source of domestic oil. There is a technology being used in at the Utah oil sands were the are able to extrat 99% of the oil out of the sand and return the sand-chemical and oil free that some in the energy field think may reduce the price of extracting the oil from shale.

    The article I was referencing talks a bout oil under the Rockies;

    “Stansberry Report Online — 4-20-6

    Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world. It is more than 2 TRILLION barrels.”

    I was again looking for the article, I can find many places it is cited, but the original article seems to have been removed.

  22. Alan,

    Try this, go to http://prismwebcastnews.com/,
    Under the SUSTAINABILITY category, select PEAK OIL,
    This

    “Saturday, February 28th, 2009
    Peak Oil Lie? US Has Utterly Giant Oil Reserves”

    is the fifth item in the list and links to the story…I hope…

  23. DJ,

    I have reservations trusting http://prismwebcastnews.com/, as a source. I don’t like a lot of the other items on their lists.

  24. Alan,

    http://prismwebcastnews.com/ was not intended to be a source, they just happened to be the site that had the article. I have found it on other sites, although the original seems to have ben removed.

  25. DJ,

    Here is what I have found.

    http://www.energybulletin.net/node/42850

    “Congratulations to those intrepid operators who are lifting oil out of the Middle Bakken. Despite this success, the Middle Bakken is clearly not the answer to our peak oil problems and dependency on foreign oil”

    http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3868

    “The Bakken potential resource, while large by US onshore field standards, will have only a minor effect on US production or imports.”

    • Alan,

      Here is a link to the oil sands extraction I mentioned earlier.

      http://www.nevtahoilsands.com/

      I am still looking for the link that mentions using a form of this technology to extract the oil from shale.

      • DJ,

        I visited the site you mentioned. They talk about the Utah oil sands. They mention reserves in the millions and low billions of barrels. The operations that they list seem in the 100s of thousands of barrels per year.

        I only gave it a fast read, but it did not sound as if they had found enough to insure oil independence. That said, we need every drop.

  26. For the record.

    Just another documented example of President Obama being “Inaccurate”.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/12/politics/main5236159.shtml

    It must really stink when the teleprompter isn’t there.

  27. Are you unemployed? Are you underemployed? Do you just need a little extra money? Do I have a deal for you? Thanks to our beloved President, you can make extra money and push back against those racist Republican mobs. You know, those organized astro turf knuckle draggers, who pretend to represent every day Americans.

    http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/npo/1320138750.html

    “Work to Pass Obama’s Healthcare Plan and Get Paid to Do it!$10-15 hr! (Mid Wilshire)”

  28. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/opinion/16obama.html?_r=2

    President Obama’s op-ed piece on health care. It’s BIG INSURANCE’s fault. It’s always big oil, big drug, big bank, big wall street. It’s never big government.

    President Obama says; ” We’ll cut hundreds of billions of dollars in waste and inefficiency in federal health programs like Medicare and Medicaid”

    WHY doesn’t he do that now?? If he knows where this inefficiency is, he can just cut it now without overhauling the rest of the medical economy.

    The rest of the President’s sentence ; ” and in unwarranted subsidies to insurance companies that do nothing to improve care and everything to improve their profits.”

    What he means is that Big Insurance will now have to pay protection money to the Democratic Party if they want to make these big profits and pay big bonuses.

    Am I wrong? Maybe. Look at the record. Democrats have bashed any company making a profit which does not pay them off. Barney Frank, Lacy Clay, and Maxine Waters had no problem with the $100 million bonus Franklin Raines received for destroying Fannie Mae. They protected him from OFHEO during the hearings.

    Finally lets look at how President Barak Obama uses your money to punish and reward. This is from an article on Rahm Emanuel, Obama’s Chief of Staff.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/us/politics/16emanuel.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp

    “That is not to say Mr. Emanuel does not still play hardball. When Senator Jon Kyl of Arizona, the Republican whip, criticized Mr. Obama for spending too much, cabinet secretaries sent a letter to his state’s governor, Jan Brewer, a Republican, asking what stimulus money she did not want.”

    Anyone want to argue with me that this is not corruption? Anyone want to argue with me that these people should not be in charge?

  29. Here is another example of how our rulers in Washington D.C. know how to spend our money better than we do.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-capitol-lights21-2009aug21,0,6344394.story

    “A project headed by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is underway to replace the current lights with bulbs expected to use 70% less energy. But some Republicans say the $1-million cost is too pricey.”

    “House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) complained that it would take 50 years to generate enough energy savings to recoup the costs.”

  30. The health care legislation is loaded with complex language and a multitude of pages. Since most of us won’t read it or understand the details, we rely on our political leaders and their critics to tell us what it really means. It comes down to credibility. Who do you believe?

    As President Obama goes out to public forums to correct what he calls misinformation about health care reform it is useful to give examples of his administration’s contradictions.

    http://cbs5.com/national/president.barack.obama.2.940492.html

    “Obama Seeks To Halve Budget Deficit”

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/21/official-obama-increase-year-deficit-trillion/?test=latestnews

    “Obama Administration to Increase 10-Year Deficit Estimate to $9 Trillion”

  31. Alan,

    Don’t forget his promises to lower taxes on 95% of Americans, his promise of transparency, his promise to allow bills to viewed by the people for 5 days before signing them, his promise to eliminate pork…

    This Single payer plan he wants is shredding his party. Chairman MaObama is between a rock and a hard place, if hangs his hat on Pelosi and the far left, he loses the independents, if he rolls with the independents, he loses his base. He would be better off leaving health care alone, he won’t though, and the resulting “compromise” bill is going to destroy whats left of the economy and decimate the dollar.

    • “Don’t forget his promises to lower taxes on 95% of Americans”

      You mean the payroll tax cuts that were *already put into effect* earlier this year…lol…

      “his promise to eliminate pork”

      He *never* promised this at all. For the who-knows-what-time, under GOP leadership in Congress, earmarks grew both in number & in cost. Under Democratic leadership in Congress, earmarks were reduced both in number & in cost, period.

      “This Single payer plan he wants is shredding his party.”

      It’s NOT a single-payer health care plan!! Get that through your apparently overly-thick skull “DJ”!!

      “He would be better off leaving health care alone”

      You mean the GOP’s buddies in the health insurance & pharmaceutical companies would be better off if nothing was done that is…ugh…

      • Actually Comrade, his plan IS a single payer plan. THe verbiage in the house bill prohibits one from getting private insurance when they change jobs-perhaps you should read the bill Kiddo.

        Chairman MaObama did proise to eliminate pork, “…even though it is stashed with the very kinds of pet projects that the campaigning Obama promised to resist”(¶1) Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/11/obama-earmark-reform-rema_n_173873.html

        As I am sure you will point out, in the attached speech, Dear Leader praises SOME earmarks, and that does not change the FACT that he campaigned on ELIMINATING THEM. As I stated, it is another broken promise Kiddo, PERIOD.

  32. DJ,

    I was chastised by WW for calling him Obulls$1tter. Those of us in the loyal opposition always knew the man talked like a combination lawyer and used car salesman. His vague generalities give him plausible deniability. Finally some of his supporters are getting tired. His snow jobs are blizzards.

    I think the President is being undone by the unemployment rate. Even though the economy has bottomed and may actually be in recovery, the jobless will soon lose all patience. Companies have become profitable by cutting people, not by rising sales. They are not in a hurry to rehire, especially with Democrats constantly bashing business and throwing card check around.

    We are soon getting to the point of knowing whether Obama is Clinton or Carter. If the unemployment rate does not soon fall, Obama-care will be the least of his political problems. Odds are good that Iraq, Afghanistan, or N.Korea will fall apart. If that happens while people are still out of work we will all be arguing about which Republican will take over in 2012.

    • Alan,
      Good analysis (for lack of a better word). In response to your query, Chairman MaObama talks like Clinton, but governs like Carter. Actually, he is left of Carter. I am not convinced that he can be beat in 2012, I would like to see it, but I am not convinced it will happen. I am certain that the House will change hands by then, and the Senate will come back from this filibuster proof debacle they have allowed. However, if the GOP doesn’t find a slew of Conservative/Libertarian candidates it won’t matter much, there is so little difference between the two parties. If you are familiar with Carroll Quigley, I think the political parties we have now are precisely what he advocated. If things do not change, the country will be in this pre-communism limbo for many years.

  33. DJ,

    I’ve never heard of Carrol Quigley. Since you brought him up, I’ve scanned briefly his articles at http://www.carrollquigley.net/articles.htm

    He is too egg headed for my taste, or maybe the word is abstract. I could not find what he wrote about political parties.

    As far as where I see the parties heading, the Democrats are trying to have permanent dependencies built before the political winds shift. This will help them down the road. As the ones in power they are getting fatter and more corrupt. My favorite bacon bringer backer is John Murtha. Eventually this and disunity will do them in.

    Republicans have always been at their best when they come in to power, hungry. The examples are the Reaganites in 81 and Gingrich & co in 95. The Democrats are certainly corrupt and fat enough now for the scrapple tub. The question is will Republicans be hungry enough in 2010 and 2012.

    • Alan,

      Carroll Quigley said that both political parties should very near the same ideological, that way the change of control would have little impact. HE also said “The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinaire and academic thinkers.” (I can’t remember where the quote came from, but it was from CQ).

      I disagree with the statements. The current problem we have, started with those who wanted government to have a larger role and those who wanted the states to have a a larger role. They have evolved into two “I can give you more than they can” entitlement generating machines, ideologically, I can find little difference between them, in the implementation of their ideals, however, they do differ and that is what the current “DEM v. REP” cat fight is about. It is not about ideological differences, it is 100% about how fast we get to the Nanny state.

  34. DJ,

    As a Republican, I reject the notion that there is no difference between the parties. The fact that they can’t cooperate is a good sign. I admit that the longer Republicans were in power the more they tried to get along by giving away the store. Politrically it did not work. They were amateur socialists. Now the country is getting a taste of professional socialists and it doesn’t like them.

    The fact that they were able to stand united against Obamacare is a good sign that Republicans are at least moving in a more Libertarian path. It is generally easier for the have nots to stay united than it is for the party in power. Democrats won’t be able to spread all the graft equitably among all of their freeloaders.

    Right now Republicans are wandering the wilderness. Hopefully they hate it enough not to do it for 40 years. If they brand themselves as anti Obama, anti Pelosi and Reid, they have a good chance. If they go all bi-partisan their goose is cooked. The only thing they should support Obama on is the Afghanistan war. Obama is losing his anti war hippies on that one.

  35. Alan,

    I agree he seems to be losing the hippies. I disagree on Afghanistan. Obama, just like Bush, has no plan to GTFO. I want a President that will “release the hounds”, then when the war is over, bring them home. This pussy-footing around Bush and Chairman MaObama are doing is getting ridiculous.

    Regarding MaObamacare, what little the GOP has shown is not encouraging. I am a Conservative, I want representation that will get the government OUT of health care, and move completely away from employer paid health care, let each person (or family) buy health insurance the same way that auto insurance can be bought, or homeowners insurance. What I have seen from the GOP, is crap like HSA’a and tax credits. Crap that hasn’t worked and CANNOT work. anytime the government is giving money away, the costs sky rocket.

  36. DJ,

    Perhaps I am less of an ideological purist than you. You said “What I have seen from the GOP, is crap like HSA’a and tax credits. Crap that hasn’t worked and CANNOT work. anytime the government is giving money away, the costs sky rocket.”

    Where have health savings accounts and tax credits been tried and where have they failed? I agree that once you give away free health care there is a rush to get on it and bankrupt it. Those who then pay for it with their taxes say to themselves, ” why don’t I quit killing myself and get on the gravy train too.”

    The most egregious example is disability. I know plenty of people who belong on it and just as many who should be taken off of it. Once you get on it, you’ve got a financial back stop that the rest of us don’t have.

    The other example is the free health care for kids in Hawaii. So many people who could have covered their own kids signed up that they destroyed it.

    • Alan,

      My apologies for a poorly worded response. I can find no evidence that HSA’s and tax credits work or do not work. My “Crap that hasn’t worked and CANNOT work”. statement was intended to reference farm subsides, medicare, medicaid, social security, etc. Every program the government (fed and state) start, sound like a good idea, they “feel good”, but the cost and return for that cost are inversely proportional. The more they cost, the lower the return.

      The GOP and DNC ideologies as applied to medicare are the same. LBJ fought for and started the program, Bush added part D.

      If the ideologies were different, the GOP would have worked to privatize all of medicare and medicaid. Government should have no involvement in health care or insurance.

      Regarding Social Security, neither side differs on the approach to SS. There have been attempts to privatize, but they fall on deaf ears. An ideologically different party would have ran candidates on the advantages of privatizing SS. Instead, we are told it is “the third rail” NO ONE messes with social security.

      As far as Keiki care, I don’t blame those that let policies lapse, or just outright canceled them, why pay for health care for someone elses kids as well as your own? Even if half the bill was not picked up by the working people of Hawaii, the same result should be expected. Being that those with good paying jobs were picking up half the tab, I am shocked it took seven months.

  37. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203946904574298661486528186.html

    Excerpts:

    “Erisa allows employers that self-insure—that is, those large enough to build their own risk pools and pay benefits directly”

    “Roughly 75% of employer-based coverage is governed by Erisa’s “freedom of purchase” rules.”

    “Goodbye to all that. The House bill says that after a five-year grace period all Erisa insurance offerings will have to win government approval”

    “Currently, lawsuits about employee benefits are barred under the law, allowing large employers to avoid the state tort lotteries in disputes over coverage.”

    “As a gratuity to the trial bar, Democrats will now subject businesses to these liabilities in the name of health “reform.””

  38. DJ,

    You said, “Regarding Social Security, neither side differs on the approach to SS. There have been attempts to privatize, but they fall on deaf ears. An ideologically different party would have ran candidates on the advantages of privatizing SS. Instead, we are told it is “the third rail” NO ONE messes with social security.”

    I don’t think that you appreciate the political realities that both parties have to deal with. Independent of Democrats and Republicans you have special interest groups such as the gun lobby, minority groups, unions,lawyers,etc. The weakest of these by far are the taxpayers. THE most powerful group are the old people.

    They are sometimes easily mislead. When George Bush tried to allow younger people to redirect a small fraction of their SS contributions in to private accounts in exchange for slowing the entitlement liability growth of SS, the Democrats ginned up Grandma and Grandpa in to believing that those EVIL Republicans were risking THEIR SS money in the stock market.

    It worked wonderfully. Republicans were severely damaged and SS reform was killed. In fact Democrats have so owned the geezers that they were totally taken off guard when the old folks turned on them over Obamacare. I have laughed to myself thinking how Democrats are accusing Republicans of scaring old folks with tales of death panels, but they had no trouble lying to seniors about private accounts back in 01 or 02.

    Again I don’t think you properly account for these special interest groups who vie with one another to control either party. I don’t know that there is a special interest group with the power to push any party towards messing with social security. The seniors will murder which ever party tries.

  39. Alan,

    I do appreciate the political realities you mentioned. I am merely advocating for a different tone from Washington. It is probable that the lobbyist’s will maintain control over the political spectrum, it doesn’t mean I have to like it.

    I agreed with Bush’s stance on health care, I still think it is a much better idea, and you are correct , the DNC threw Grandma and Grandpa a half truth, and Grandma and Grandpa bought it. My point is, I did not see a lot of GOP bubbas’ refuting the contention the DNC threw out. It seems as if the GOP just rolled over and said, “Well, Dubya tried, but Grandma nad Grandpa said NO! so we will just let it go.” It was probably lobby pressure that caused it, I do not doubt that, I just want a message from the GOP that differs from that of the DNC.

  40. DJ,

    “I just want a message from the GOP that differs from that of the DNC.”

    Then you had better join one of the special interest groups that is trying to shape the Republican Party.

    It is easy to forget that the Reaganites tried and failed for a long time against the moderates before they seized control of the GOP and lead it to victory in 1980.

    Third party campaigns are always disasters. The 2 parties are reality. If you choose not to accept that, you are choosing to be powerless.

    The parties are not static. The tea partyers are influencing Republicans, which is a great public relations contrast to the nuts and acorns who tell the Democrats what to do.

    • Alan,

      I am well a ware of the “two” parties we have. I was forefront in trying to get RP supporters to vote McCain-simply because we are dominated by a two party system.

      I am a member of several websites that are trying to rebuild the GOP.

      The Reagan revolution is precisely what I am talking about. conservative/Libertarian message won 49 states and gained control of Congress for the first time in 2 billion years. Then the power of the purse usurped the GOP, they became addicted to social justice (albeit on a smaller level than the DNC) and then the slippery slope to where we are now. To parties with the same message, the only difference is the speed in which they want to implement their plan. It sadly reminds me of the run to Socialism in Europe, you had to sides, the Leninists who wanted to get there now! and the Fabians who wanted to go slowly.

  41. Since Sen. Kennedy passed away and we are hearing so many wonderful things about the “Lion of the Senate”, I thought I would post a site about his real life.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1209313/Ted-Kennedy-The-Senator-Sleaze-drunk-sexual-bully–left-young-woman-die.html

    Also since we are hearing about how he reached across the isle to work with Republicans it is also instructive how he really treated Republicans. In this case Robert Bork.

    http://althouse.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-ted-kennedy-said-about-robert-bork.html

  42. DJ,

    I agree with you on what the Republicans had become up until 06. I said it before, they became amateur Democrats, actually amateur Socialists, same thing. Instead of the Two party system, we had the ” me too ” form of government. The GOP countered Democratic entitlement proposals with their own ” me too ” give aways.

    As soon as the economy and the Iraq war hit rough patches the press ginned up the ” culture of corruption “, totally ignoring Democrat scandals and Republicans lost power.

    The voters sure showed the Republicans. Now they have professional bolsheviks as their dictators. The voters are slowly figuring out that they royally screwed themselves making their point to Republicans.

    I believe that at least for the short term, being turned out of power in 06 and 08 taught the GOP a lesson. They have to brand themselves as an alternative to Democratic populism.

    Forcing neo liberals like Arlen Spector out of the Republican Party is a great place to start.

  43. Alan,

    Arlen is gone, now we need both of Maine’s Senators to go as well.

    As a Pennsylvanian, is there any chance that Rick Santorum has anything left in the tank? Maybe Governor…

    The first few weeks after Chairman MaObama won, everywhere I went there wer Pro Obama/Biden bumper stickers, and the Leninesque “Yes We Did” stickers, I don’t see many anymore, I am really getting the feeling that there is some serious buyers remorse. I am not convinced that the remorse is significant enough to get him ousted in 12 though.

    As far as being an alternative to the DNC, the GOP has a long way to go, when I hear them saying we agree health are needs reform, and I cannot find any plan or legislation that doesn’t involve government involvement I am still not convinced they have learned there lesson.

    • “Arlen is gone, now we need both of Maine’s Senators to go as well.”

      Amen to that…the smaller the GOP gets, the better the country will be IMO. Purging yourselves of so-called undesirables will be the the death of the GOP.

      “As a Pennsylvanian, is there any chance that Rick Santorum has anything left in the tank?”

      Nope, but thanks for asking…he’s a has-been far-Right wacko…stick a fork in him.

      “I am really getting the feeling that there is some serious buyers remorse.”

      Keep dreaming wing-nut…

  44. I met some people recently who vehemently told me that a stimulus won’t work. The “only” way, they said, to stimulate an economy is to cut taxes. As they talked I couldn’t help but thinking about the Bush tax cuts that preceded our current recession. Somehow they were not able to put that particular 2 and 2 together.

  45. (Post hoc ergo propter hoc) != (2 + 2)

  46. Yeah, yeah. :)

    It’s all in the timing and those nebulous other factors. If something good happens and my president is in charge, he’s obviously responsible. If something bad happens and my president is in charge, it’s obviously the fault of the last other-party president that was around. This works amazingly well for explaining away any possible set of circumstances.

    If, however, it seems that there isn’t an other-party president around where we can lay the blame, then it’s always those “other factors.”

    This makes a neat and tidy circular system so that “my” president is always good and “your” president is always bad.

    Bush implemented tax cuts when the economy went bad. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, therefore, the economy was someone else’s fault. Then, if the economy recovers, now or even in a few years, it will obviously be the results of Bush’s wisdom, tax cuts and prescience.

    LOLZ!

    • Obama is not just your President. Further, Obama would not be our President except for a vote from all parties. This country belongs to all of us. It’s in our best interests that ALL our Presidents do well.

      So, point out your supportive positions on President Bush, the first President Bush, and Reagan, or remain looking like a hypocrite: “If something good happens and my president is in charge, he’s obviously responsible. If something bad happens and my president is in charge, it’s obviously the fault of the last other-party president that was around. This works amazingly well for explaining away any possible set of circumstances.

      If, however, it seems that there isn’t an other-party president around where we can lay the blame, then it’s always those other factors.”

  47. Wigglesworth,

    You are back. I thought that with President Obama’s poll numbers dipping ever so slightly, that you had moved on to friendlier forums.

    As far as the Bush tax cuts working or not working, that is an interesting FACTOR in the whole economic equation. In other words, if all other FACTORS were constant, we could accurately judge the Bush tax cuts. I will assume that you are with me so far.

    The problem with this is that all other FACTORS were not constant. The most obvious other variable would be the ascension of Pelosi and the Democrats in the House of Representatives.

    The other variables such as high energy prices and the corruption of the financial system through Fannie and Freddie can also be laid at the feet of your Democrats.

    I do not expect you to agree with my content, but I at least made my point with clarity.

  48. Oh I never left. :)

    Is that last sentence a slam on me? That I post with unclarity or something?

    All I’m saying, without relying on one ounce of economic knowledge or observation is that:

    1. Bush cut taxes
    2. There followed an economic recession
    3. Obama was elected and did a stimulus
    4. The economy is showing some signs of recovery

    Obviously this chain of events is more simplistic than a tinker toy. I know that. Bush did a lot more than just cut taxes, the sum total of which may have had a huge impact on the economy.

    But if a recovery has started and gets healthier and healthier under Obama, I’m sure some people will look at these facts and say:

    Obama sucks. Bush rocks.

    Is that clear enough for ya?

    • Wigglesworth,

      “Is that last sentence a slam on me? That I post with unclarity or something?”

      In fairness, I read your post a little too fast the first time. After rereading it, I admit to being a little harsh. However, I do have a problem with your phrase “Post hoc ergo propter hoc,”. As a poor dum hick, that went right over my head.

      “But if a recovery has started and gets healthier and healthier under Obama,I’m sure some people will look at these facts and say:

      Obama sucks. Bush rocks.”

      The economy is in recovery. The question is how far and how fast will it continue. If the recovery in jobs lags behind the rest of the economy for too long, it won’t just be “some people”.

      I know this changes the subject, but energy is my particular interest. How will we ever get to the “green economy” when these damn oil companies keep finding more oil?

      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/business/global/03oil.html?_r=1&hpw

      “BP Discovers ‘Giant’ Oil Field in Gulf”

      I really wish “your guy” Obama would stop demonizing the doctors, hospitals,insurance companies, and big pharma, and go back to what Democrats do best, bashing big oil. Those windfall profits that found this deep sea deposit would be much better spent subsidizing a bunch of windmill and solar farms. Makes me all warm and fuzzy just thinking about it.

    • 1. Bush cut taxes
      2. There followed an economic recession
      3. Obama was elected and did a stimulus
      4. The economy is showing some signs of recovery

      It bares repeating, “…without relying on one ounce of economic knowledge or observation…”

      “signs of recovery” Where did you say your head is? Oh, you didn’t…why point out the obvious.

      Encouraging more capital would be bad for the less fortunate because…you’ve been duped into that view. I can assume that if I promise to give your evil capital to the less fortunate I’ll be allowed control and directive of said capital while restricting you of competition. If you have no capital I assume it would be evil for me to hire you so you can save up for some, seeing as how your ideology would eliminate capital and that those with it hate those who don’t have it.

      Yep, convoluted but those are your dots I’ve connected.

  49. This is a quickie flyby, more later:

    NYD introduced that phrase, not me, when NYD brilliantly and succinctly said:

    (Post hoc ergo propter hoc) != (2 + 2)

    An argument that is quite elegant in its simplicity. :)

  50. Wigglesworth,

    The Bush tax cut increased federal revenue (just like ALL tax cuts do). Bush supported the stimulus just like Chairman MaObama does, problem is, this “recovery” you speak of has happened with very little of the stimulus money being spent. In other words, the “recovery” is happening without the benefit of the stimulus-it was NEVER NEEDED. The money allocated for the stimulus was a waste of time. Even in this over-regulated capitalism-lite economic system we currently have, it has managed to recover its self.

    • “The Bush tax cut increased federal revenue”

      …but federal revenue did NOT increase as much as it would have without the Bush tax cuts (for mostly the very wealthy), period.

      “In other words, the ‘recovery’ is happening without the benefit of the stimulus”

      …in your own completely & totally biased opinion that is.

      “The money allocated for the stimulus was a waste of time.”

      Again, in your own completely & totally biased opinion that is.

      • “…but federal revenue did NOT increase as much as it would have without the Bush tax cuts (for mostly the very wealthy), period.”

        In your completely and totally biased AND unsupported opinion that is.

        “In other words, the ‘recovery’ is happening without the benefit of the stimulus” Dear Leader announced the recovery, not me. Try researching things a bit Comrade…

        “The money allocated for the stimulus was a waste of time.” Obviously, if the economy is in recovery, the “stimulus money was not needed-oddly just as predicted by FREE MARKET proponents PERIOD.

        Try researching some facts Comrade.

  51. So, some seem to think that crippling those who are not poor is helping the poor. If all are made poor it will help the poor. Supporting a system that makes businesses accountable to gov’t rather then consumers will help the poor.

    Because there seems to be no common sense, we still have history. The above crippling has been tried before. It has never worked…Oh, but we’ll have different results this time! Does anyone remember the meaning of insanity?

  52. I find it amusing to watch the Obama disciples deal with his slippage in the poles and also with the health care debacle. Their line is that America voted for the hope and change agenda. Well it seems that America has CHANGED it’s mind.

    Rather like a drunken bride waking up the next morning and saying, “What the hell was I thinking!!”. None of Prince Charming’s promises were kept.

    After promising to go over line by line to get rid of earmarks, we got the stimulus bill, which was nothing but payoffs to Democratic lackeys. After promising to be post racial, he has hired people like his green job czar.

    After promising to get rid of lobbyists, he immediately hired some. After promises to fix health care we got a thousand page monstrosity for a house bill that most of it’s supporters have not read, could not read, and could not tell you what is or is not in the bill.

    The honeymoon is over. It will be a rocky 4 year marriage at best, followed by a quickie divorce.

  53. The luxury liner SS Obama just hit another rock during it’s historic 4 year cruise. There goes that green collar job I had my heart set on.

    President Obama’s Green jobs Czar resigned.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/us/politics/06vanjones.html?_r=1&hp

  54. Staying with the green economy theme, does anyone remember how Democrats said that the US must be a leader in this new reality? They were so very concerned that we were being left behind. Well Spain thought that way. They decided to be the leader in installed Solar capacity. Let’s see how that worked out for them.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125193815050081615.html

  55. Those of us on the right have been amazed that the public has not woken up to the rampant corruption of many of President Obama’s support groups. The state controlled media has protected these groups.

    Now 2 rays of sunlight in the form of videos has been cast upon ACORN. Finally the stench of mendacity has become too strong even for this administration. The Census bureau is cutting ties to ACORN.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125271412822705239.html

    • The ACORN debacle is only beginning. It does not matter how bad things get though, Chairman MaObama will not sever ties with his Mob cronies.

      I doubt Van Jones is done either, soon we will hear about him as an advisors advisor, or an ACORN board member, Chiarman MaObama is not going to let a fellow Communist get to far away.

  56. More evidence that the green economy will just have to wait. Contrary to what some on this board believe, those wonderfully evil oil companies just keep on keeping on finding and expanding oil and natural gas production around the world.

    We have not run out of fossil fuel just yet. This to me seems a much better use of $42 billion than for the next subsidized alternative energy project.

    It’s the difference between how the private sector makes economically intelligent decisions because they have to make a profit and the way government makes politically motivated decisions.

    And unlike your typical green power BS technology, oil and gas actually PAY more in taxes to the various governments than they cost. What a concept MG.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/approval-for-gorgon-gas-project-expected-in-days-2009-09-11

    “OK for $42 billion Gorgon project expected in days
    Project to lead Australia in liquid natural-gas production”

    “The Gorgon project to tap into 40 trillion cubic feet of gas would more than double the size of the country’s largest LNG terminal,”

    • Thanks for the link Alan, I had read about the Gorgon find awhile back and had forgotten about it.

      • Well, you can go back to forgetting about it, since they don’t even have any hard numbers on the amount of oil that they can expect to get out of there eventually, someday, when the price is right that is…

  57. “Actually Comrade, his plan IS a single payer plan.”

    It’s been obvious for many months now that you simply don’t know what a single payer health care plan looks like “DJ”. That’s YOUR problem, not mine!

    “THe verbiage in the house bill prohibits one from getting private insurance when they change jobs”

    Nonsense, almost every single health care plan that will be available in the national health insurance “exchange” will be a PRIVATE plan, period.

    “Chairman MaObama did proise to eliminate pork”

    No, he didn’t, and even John McCain’s buddy Lindsey Graham has said that the goal is NOT to eliminate ALL earmarks. The point is to shed more light on them, which the Democratic Congress has done…all while reducing both their numbers (which ballooned under GOP “leadership” of Congress) & their actual cost.

    From your own link:
    “Now, let me be clear: Done right, earmarks have given legislators the opportunity to direct federal money to worthy projects that benefit people in their districts, and that’s why I’ve opposed their outright elimination. And I also find it ironic that some of those who rail most loudly against this bill because of earmarks actually inserted earmarks of their own — and will tout them in their own states and their own districts.”

    and…

    “In 2007, the new Democratic leadership in Congress began to address these abuses with a series of reforms that I was proud to have helped to write. We eliminated anonymous earmarks and created new measures of transparency in the process, so Americans can better follow how their tax dollars are being spent.”
    ————————
    “and that does not change the FACT that he campaigned on ELIMINATING THEM.”

    Once again “DJ”, you have ZERO FACTS to back up what you have to say here, just like always…lol…

    “‘…but federal revenue did NOT increase as much as it would have without the Bush tax cuts (for mostly the very wealthy), period.’

    In your completely and totally biased AND unsupported opinion that is.”

    LOL…oh-thee-that-makes-statements-all-the-time-without-ANY-support, chew on this:

    “No, The Bush Tax Cuts Have NOT Generated Higher Revenues”

    “the strong, broad consensus among economists — including conservative economists and Bush’s own current and former top economists — is to the contrary: The Bush tax cuts have had a net negative impact on revenues (i.e., revenues would have been higher, and would be higher today, if the Bush tax cuts had not taken place).”

    http://logicizer.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx?mode=post&g=f48d2bf3-1c51-4592-aa46-191f089d752f

    That’s from a “conservative” website BTW.

    “A study by the President’s own Treasury Department confirmed the common-sense view shared by economists across the political spectrum: cutting taxes decreases revenues.”

    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=692

    Also, through the end of 2008, total federal tax revenues relative to GDP had yet to regain their 2000 peak.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Revenue_and_Expense_to_GDP_Chart_1993_-_2008.png
    ————————-
    “Dear Leader announced the recovery, not me.”

    Hey, the recovery has only just started to begin…it’s not even in full swing yet!

    “Obviously, if the economy is in recovery, the stimulus money was not needed-oddly just as predicted by FREE MARKET proponents PERIOD.”

    And the Right-wing noise machine continues…ugh… Whether we like it or not, a large portion of our economy is driven by consumption. How, praytell, does one try to encourage others to spend money during an economic downturn? You do this the same way that it’s been done successfully in the past…you show *leadership* by having the govt. spend more money so that consumer confidence rises over time, period.

    As per usual “DJ”, you simply don’t know what the heck you are trying to talk about, period end of story.

    • “You do this the same way that it’s been done successfully in the past…you show *leadership* by having the govt. spend more money so that consumer confidence rises over time, period.”

      Why then is Dear Leader not spending? If the purpose of “Governemnt Spending” is to increase COnsumer Confidence, logic would dictate that the more the Government spends the better. Yet Dear Leader is sitting on BILLIONS!

      The formula you adore has never worked; didn’t work for FDR, didn’t work for Japan, and will not work for Chairman MaObama.

      The illogic you just displayed Kiddo is a new low. Keep trying though…

      • “Why then is Dear Leader not spending?”

        He is, and you’re one of the ones on here that’s been whining about it! LOL…

        “Yet Dear Leader is sitting on BILLIONS!”

        Really now?? And where would those “BILLIONS” be, praytell??

        “The formula you adore has never worked; didn’t work for FDR”

        Of course it did, and your completely biased, Right-wing assertions to the contrary are unimportant on the matter, period.

  58. Mister Guy,

    You said, “Well, you can go back to forgetting about it, since they don’t even have any hard numbers on the amount of oil that they can expect to get out of there eventually, someday, when the price is right that is…”

    You posted this as a response to DJ’s answer to me about the Gorgon project which has to do with natural gas not oil. I am going to assume that you were thinking one thing and typed another. It happens to me all of the time.

  59. “…since they don’t even have any hard numbers on the amount of oil that they can expect to get out…”

    You really should learn to read Comrade Guy, the article is refering to LIQUID NATURAL GAS, not oil.

  60. Life is a learning experience! Everything eventually will turn to it’s opposite. “Ignorance” will eventually become “enlightenment.” You cannot stop progress. “Competition” must eventually become “cooperation.” …It’s “DIALECTICAL!” …”Dogma” and “Superstition” will be replaced by the “Scientific Method!”.. “Subjective believing” will be replaced by “Objective knowing!” …The future is a freight train and those that stand in it’s way will be run over and crushed and buried inside the trash can of the no longer relevant past.
    Capitalism will turn to Socialism and Socialism will turn to Communism and the ignorant will never know what hit them and buried them.
    You cannot stop the forward movement of history!
    Wars will end when “Nation States” are transformed into a cooperative “global village” that is ruled from the bottom up, rather then from the top down!

    • “Wars will end when “Nation States” are transformed into a cooperative “global village” that is ruled from the bottom up, rather then from the top down!”

      Wars will not end with the loss of the nation state, the unitended consequence of this Utopian fallacy will be more upheavel and unrest-or do you advocate a police state?

      Nothing can be ruled form the bottom up-where do you come up with this drivel???

  61. Nations like everything in the universe, … if it does not come together and grow to it’s full potential, … it will fall apart and cease to exist!

    It is the natural flow of events that government and the nations that it represents at it’s evolutionary beginnings will be small and innocent like a small child. But in time it will grow and mature and eventually will die and go out of existence. and be replaced by something that is more compatible with the constantly changing environment, circumstances and situations that exists at a particular point in time.

    To say that all change is bad is the same as saying that all progress is bad, and should be avoided. ..This is typical of conservatives and Right Wingers that in a child like way, refuse to see the obvious, and cling to the past without understanding the present and the natural movement toward the future.

    I hate to shock the sensibilities of you “Reactionary Righties”, but everything that exists will eventually change to the opposite of what was!

    All NATIONS because out of necessity, will have to come together and become like a global village and individual nations will cease to exist.

    The center of commerce at the beginning of the establishing of nations, were centered in the rural areas. In the USA, King Cotton ruled and provincialism was the “Way Of Life. But America changed and naturally became more mature. The Center of Commerce became established away from the countryside and toward the towns and villages, and then economic power came to the cities. After that States became the center of commerce, and after that power was centered in the Federal Government. Now we have the Global Economy and through all these steps of maturing economic growth the anti progressive Right Wingers had and are in opposition to every step of the way of this economic growth.

    Nations and Nationalism had a beginning and it, like everything in existence will eventually come to an end. It’s predictable that the global economy will cause the effect of the people in the world to not separate but to come together as earthlings and to cooperate and not to compete for domination as people had done in the past. Common interest will cause humanity to establish a planned world economy so that they can use the world’s advanced technology to satisfy the needs of all earthlings everywhere.
    The entire earth and all of the people on the earth can and will prosper under the conditions of cooperation.

  62. Mr. Walters,

    “All NATIONS because out of necessity, will have to come together and become like a global village and individual nations will cease to exist.”

    “It’s predictable that the global economy will cause the effect of the people in the world to not separate but to come together as earthlings and to cooperate and not to compete for domination as people had done in the past. Common interest will cause humanity to establish a planned world economy so that they can use the world’s advanced technology to satisfy the needs of all earthlings everywhere.
    The entire earth and all of the people on the earth can and will prosper under the conditions of cooperation.”

    For an old man, you sure don’t have a clue about human nature. Study the fall of the Roman Empire. When the existing order of this world is destroyed your Utopia will not replace it. There will always be new Visigoths, Vandals, and other Barbarians who won’t cooperate.

  63. Alan, let us face the truth about those throughout the ages that have refused to recognize the anatomy of how and why every aspect of life changes. Your refusal to accept what is obvious is not unique in history. In the past there have always been movements of people that are fearful of necessary change. These reactionary members of the human race and condition, fear and hate those within the human family that see the necessity of moving beyond the familiar and experience that what is new and different. It is because of progressive movements and despite rightwing reactionary opposition that humanity has moved and became more together than apart.
    The pride in ones Family Tribe, Race, and Nation and the prejudice and hate that accompanies that pride against those that are of another group that is different therefor not to be trusted.
    Right Wingers have always opposed the forces of progress that encouraged the coming together and establishing a unity and trust of individuals into a formation of groups that did not exist before. … Individuals became families, families became tribes, tribes became nations and nations will become a global village and humanity will become united as one!
    The coming together of diverse groups on the basis of equality will add to the culture by sharing and enriching those that unite as equals.
    In the past the coming together of people into groups was on the basis of one group dominating another group as in slavery.
    But humanity progresses, so instead of the dominating culture destroying the culture of the group being dominated, the culture will be shared in a equal partnership.
    I know that this idea of humanity finally coming together as in one big family is something that you rightwingers hate because it represents everything that you are opposed to. Pride in the human family that is an enlargement of the pride in individual families seems to be too big of a concept for Right Wingers to grasp!
    Without pride and prejudice and fear and hate as part of the human condition the Right Wing movements will have nothing to live for.

  64. Mr. Walters,

    If you argue history with me, you will lose. We have argued ideology. Now let us argue facts. I can back up what I say with examples. How about you doing it for a change?

    You said, ” In the past there have always been movements of people that are fearful of necessary change. ” Gee that is a real generic truism. Almost as useless as saying ” I voted for Obama, cause I’m for change” and then giving no specifics. Give me examples of past movements with in your Progressive context?

    Give me past examples of this universal Utopia , which you are sure we are all headed for?

    • Alan,
      It is impossible for a closed mind to be open to new ideas and historical facts that are new and different from what they are familiar with. History is full of dead heads that refuse to learn from the experience of others and refuse to acknowledge that they are wrong headed about that which they were convinced was true.
      It is a fact that those that are on the right wing of the political spectrum from the beginning of time to the present day represent a thought process that is grounded in refusing to stubornly accept anything that is different from what existed in the past. “What is good enough for my daddy is good enough for me!” is the popular refrain from conservative Right Wingers! They are traditionalists and so they will always fight against those that argue for necessary change and for a better future than what existed in the past and what exists in the present.
      Progressives from the beginning of time have organized movements that struggled against those that insisted that women are not equal and are inferior in every way to the men in the family and they should be treated as slaves. The separation of the races and the attitude of suppremacy was and is a concept that was and is promoted by Right Wingers and fought against by the progressive left wingers from the time of slavery to the present day.
      The period of the enlightenment was a movement that progressives attached themselves to and they fought the Right Wingers of that day that insisted on encouraging superstition, ignorance, blind belief in the dogmas of the church, torture, and anti science!
      Modernism, Science, and advances in technology are causes that progressives have historically struggled to advance, and those on the Right have consistantly fought against these modern advances in our environment.
      It is the Right Wing of the political spectrum that has advocated the dropping of the big bomb and nuking them into the stone age! This act of atrocity had never been uttered by progressives, only by the political Right Wing! Torture has always been opposed by the Movement of Progressives and advocated by the Right Wing movements. It is the Left Wing movemente that have historicaly been on the moral high ground, It is they that organized movements against the death penalty, and to protect our environment from those on the Right that would sacrafice our environment on the alter of Republican greed.
      By struggling together the progressive movement has been the cause that has ignited the imagination of those that had formerly been oppressed to move forward and throw off their chains that had shackled them to Right Wing oppression!
      It is and was always the political Right Wing that championed the Priviliged classes of slave owners large land owners, large capitalists and those that ruled with an iron hand, These Right Wing despots hated and oppressed those that were poor and disadvantaged. But history has shown us that eventually the worm turns and what had previously existed the opposite will occur.

  65. Richard,

    I am a 32 year old, uninsured, registered independent, starving artist, tax payer, vegetarian living in Center City Philadelphia. I am a freedom loving, freethinking artist who is anti-establishment, anti-oppression, anti-regulation– and a laissez-faire liberal. I am staunchly opposed to the healthcare overhaul and a HUGE advocate of conservative small government. This is because I have questioned the endless propaganda of the liberal left that is insidious in our contemporary culture. Therefore, I researched, researched about the two parties’ histories and overall philosophies. In doing research the only conclusion I can come to about what you write is that your view is part of the misinformation pervading our culture through public education and media. I perceive all that you write as a result of unquestioningly following and abiding by society’s dogma and indoctrination.

    My research indicates that true freedom is found only in small government and less laws– especially less entitlement laws. I abhor the idea of government forcing their opinions of what is correct on me (ie, health care insurance that I do not want because I prefer holistic eastern medicine and am in the best health of my life). Your very selective view is limiting you to “refusing to stubbornly accept anything that is different” from what mainstream culture dictates at this period in history. You are making an irrational religious argument– your religion of left wing politics is better than mine, when in reality, you are the one that is closed minded to new ideas and historical facts. I do not blame you because media and public education are aiding in your misinformation.

    Creating laws to enforce freedom will never work. To understand this please open your mind to the notion that perhaps there are valid points on the “other side.” The only true progressives organizing movements for a better future were our forefather’s that fought for the sovereignty of our Republic from the oppressive traditions of historical Monarchies, Dictatorships, and Oligarchies of the past. The only new and revolutionary ideas that dictate freedom are in the American constitution and have proven to promote a prosperous free country as long as the constitutional Republic is applied to our society. However, this has not endured for the past 100 years at least. The freedom of a constitutional Republic has been chiseled away consistently since the FED was established in 1913, the New Deal, Social Security, Row vs. Wade… all the entitlement laws that “liberals” have implemented over the last century. These laws were implemented under the guise of “compassion and altruism,” however, in reality these laws are false fronts for those in power to acquire more power over the people. A simple way to illustrate this is to list the endless failures and tyranny of socialism, dictatorships, oligarchies through out the ages. However, that illustration clearly falls on deaf ears.

    As Goethe stated, “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” The majority of people in America do not seem to understand that the conservative view point of small government (what the RNC is supposed to stand for but is failing to communicate) is the most altruistic, free system (as our forefathers intended). You do not seem to understand that with every law some group will be discriminated against. Nevertheless, the establishment has succeeded in convincing the majority to believe that the government should make more and more laws to “promote freedom.”

    Here is an illustration of the point about laws discriminating against groups. Take, for instance, Roe vs Wade. That is an example of laws discriminating because the government decided to make a blanket law for every state in the union. I thank goodness that the law is pro-choice because at least there is freedom in the choice (and I am 100% pro-choice) however, what about the people that are staunchly opposed to abortion (for whatever reasons- religious, moral, scientific)? These people lost their freedom because making this law is intolerant to their views. They cannot move to another state that agrees with their own ideology and personal convictions because no state has the freedom to make pro-life laws. I know that it may be hard for you to have sympathy for these individuals (it is hard for me), but in order to make my point, why don’t we consider if the government made the opposite “blanket” law for all states to follow? What if the law was that every state had to be pro-life?

    You mention “Right Wing movements” that do not protect minorities or the environment. Your understanding is flawed. “Right Wing movements” do not oppose the freedom of minorities and the betterment of the environment. On the contrary, they understand that making laws to promote these things will only limit freedom in some way. I believe these things can be accomplished through the private sector and my own personal choices (I make the choice to be a vegetarian and I meticulously recycle). When these choices are made into laws FORCING individuals to abide by the views of government, freedom is lost. Do not forget that the government the power to tax and the power of the gun behind them– clear tools for oppression and therefore I want the government’s power mitigated. For instance, on the topic of gay marriage. I think the best way to resolve the problem would be to remove the government from marriage all-together and leave it in the hands of community organizations. However, so many people are insisting the better approach is to make more laws!! When will the laws end? When there is a law for every group and we live in a military state?

    I wish more people could see this logic, however, I think this is because it is a viewpoint not promoted in our public school system and media. And of course it is not– because institutions seek to survive and prosper, so why would our school system and media teach ideologies that would not promote power for itself (at this time they are government run institutions)?

    Therefore, we need to always question authority and have an open mind. These are things I notice America is falling short of in the past few decades. I think this is because a lot of mainstream ideology indoctrinates people with their beliefs instead of promoting free-thinking and open mindedness to develop their own beliefs. I think the mainstream ideology sustains itself by claiming it is “free and altruistic” however, anyone that questions this and decides to research — with an open mind — will realize that is not the case.

    Most people do not research these things. If they did they would realize that the Republican party was the party of Lincoln and abolishing slaves, it was the party of civil rights. The democratic party was the party of the KKK. Democrats through out history have claimed that “slavery was good not only for the slave holder, but also for the slave” (http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/owens/02/racism.html). Just like in today’s political environment with the nanny state. Hand over your freedom and the elites in government will take care of you.

    I find it amazing that Americans could point to corporations or any other body that does not have the power to tax nor the power of the gun behind them, and claim that they are more powerful and less trustworthy than the government. Liberal entitlements are slowing down progress for minorities and the country in general.

    People are not thinking outside the box. They are not asking questions. You, my friend, seem to have fallen into this trap also.

    Please review the information at the URLs:

    http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/owens/02/racism.html

    http://www.nbra.info/FrequentlyAskedQuestions

    My blog: http://journalizethis.blogspot.com/

    • “Take, for instance, Roe vs Wade. That is an example of laws discriminating because the government decided to make a blanket law for every state in the union. I thank goodness that the law is pro-choice because at least there is freedom in the choice (and I am 100% pro-choice) however, what about the people that are staunchly opposed to abortion (for whatever reasons- religious, moral, scientific)?”

      They can still CHOOSE to not get abortions, period. As for their religious views on abortion, who the hell cares?? Keep your religion out of my politics please!

      “What if the law was that every state had to be pro-life?”

      That would be anti-freedom because it would be anti-choice. I suspect that even you know this, since you are admittedly pro-choice.

      “For instance, on the topic of gay marriage. I think the best way to resolve the problem would be to remove the government from marriage all-together and leave it in the hands of community organizations”

      …which, of course, will never happen, period. Wishing something away will not make it so my friend.

      “When will the laws end?”

      When society completely breaks down, that’s when. The rule of law REQUIRES that there be laws in the first place!

      “If they did they would realize that the Republican party was the party of Lincoln and abolishing slaves”

      Unfortunately, that was then & this is now. NOW the GOP has been the Party of the blatantly racist “Southern Strategy” and the preffered Party of the former Dixicrats. Heck, their current GOP National Chairman only narrowly beat out some white guy that belonged to an all-white country club!

      “The democratic party was the party of the KKK”

      …which now supports the GOP.

      BTW, trying to pass off obvious Right-wing editorials as “facts” doesn’t fly, period.

      • I’m not stating “Right-wing editorials.” I am stating facts and my citations will prove that if you read them. I have no love for the Republican party. I am registered with the Green party (vegetarian, don’t drive a car, recycle, and plant trees/gardens in the city where I live). Thus I wrote that I am registered independent and a laissez-faire liberal.
        My comment is a compilation of research I’ve done and based entirely on facts that I cited with the links included in my post.

        The overall point that I am trying to make is that many people misunderstand that by opposing laws made by the government a person is not necessarily disagreeing with the morality of the law, but instead may simply believe that the government should not be involved in the issues of that law (moral, religious, personal values).

        I do not disagree with laws. I just think the federal government’s power should be mitigated by LESS laws. I believe (as our constitution communicates) freedom is best attained through local self-government. For instance our forefathers intended the hierarchy of power for creating laws should fall LEAST under Federal Government; more under State Government, even more under County Government, Township, then Family…
        I believe many of the laws created with BIG government (when republican OR democrats are in power) such as those I listed, are infringing on personal freedom. I believe THAT is immoral.

        I am opposed to organized religion, the same way I am opposed to big government. I believe both are indoctrination machines forcing views on people. The only problem is that big government has the power of the gun to force it’s views, with ‘laws’ on the people of America (infringing on personal freedom).

        You are failing to argue any of my point because you are being irrational. Take a deep breath, step back and try to read my points with an open mind/heart. I agree with you when you wrote “Keep your religion out of my politics please” and that is EXACTLY the point I am trying to make.
        I do not have any idea what you are referring to when you write, “NOW the GOP has been the Party of the blatantly racist “Southern Strategy” and the preferred Party of the former Dixicrats” and would appreciate some examples/citations such as I offered you.

        However, before you respond, please remember my point is that creating laws to promote freedom does not work because we are a diverse culture and all share different opinions. Therefore, creating blanket laws for every state in the union will always discriminate against some group (ie, the adage “you cannot please all of the people all of the time” so we as a country must all subscribe to your conviction: “Keep your religion out of my politics please”).

        Federal Laws should not be based on emotions, feelings, morality, values. Federal Laws should be based on protecting individual rights and freedom.

        BTW, revisiting your argument to my comment regarding democrats and KKK being outdated, “that was then & this is now.” A simple google search of “KKK” will reveail to you that the KKK in the Democratic party is very current. Several relevant articles will prove my point because there are currently ex-Klan members in the Democratic party.

        Robert Byrd is CURRENTLY (2010) a Democratic senator from West Virginia and he is an ex-Klansman. So was Al Gore’s father.

        Robert Byrd, as representative of the Democratic party, filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights Act. His associate, Al Gore Sr., vehemently opposed the bill, as did most of the other Democrat senators. Robert Byrd opposed the nominations of the Supreme Court’s two black justices, liberal Thurgood Marshall and conservative Clarence Thomas.

        My friend, Mister Guy, I cannot put quotes from Byrd or Gore in my post because they are far too offensive and I could not possibly dignify them by citing them here. Please search for them yourself.
        Democrats through out history AND NOW claim that “slavery was good not only for the slave holder, but also for the slave” and that is why the Democratic party promotes “the Nannny state.” Please visit this URL:

        http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=notyourdaddy.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ashbrook.org%2Fpublicat%2Foped%2Fowens%2F02%2Fracism.html

  66. Mr. Walters,

    If as you say my mind and others have closed minds, you are not the one to open them. You just gave me a dogma filled sales pitch. I asked you to give me some historical facts. Where are they? I always repeat myself to you left wingers. Show me where your stuff has worked. Give me your success stories.

    I bet you don’t even know the history of your own Progressive movement in the United States. Do you really think this is the first go around of Socialism and Liberalism in America? Look up Woodrow Wilson and Herbert Croly. You will find failure.

  67. Alan,
    Did you read my post with your eyes open? I had repeatedly stated many instances of organized progressive movements that had successfully furthered the cause of moving forward toward a more civilized future than what had occured in the past. The “Dark Ages” are no longer dark because of the accomplishments of the forces of progressive change that had moved the entire planet away from barbarism and toward civilization.
    All changes in society is a process and everyone is a part of that process They may not be conscious of what is happening all around them but they are playing a role in the struggle to move forward with progressives and move the nation and the world increasingly away from our barbarous and uncivilized past, and on the opposite side of the coin there are those that unwittingly or wittingly choose to struggle to prevent this progressive change from happening. Their are moderates that knowingly or unknowingly play into this process of moving backward in time or forward into the future by opting to not move at all and stand still inside what presently exists. This is accomplished by the moderate center by compromising the urge to move forward into a more progressive future, or backward into a no longer relevant past.
    It is scientificaly known that when their is no movement backward or forward that after a time stagnation takes place and the “center of gravity” falls apart leaving only the polar opposites to clash because their is no compromising center to keep that clash from happening. In other words when the political center becomes no longer relevant to the times, it goes out of existence making it possible and necessary for a new and more relevent center to eventually come into being to compromise a new more modern Right Wing and Left Wing struggle to further the cause.
    The progressive movement in the USA and the other nations of the world are on the same wave length and had been and will continue to struggle to improve the conditions of those that had been and are living under desperate conditions.
    The Right Wing in the USA and throughout the planet, does not care about people.

  68. Mr. Walters,

    “Did you read my post with your eyes open? I had repeatedly stated many instances of organized progressive movements that had successfully furthered the cause of moving forward toward a more civilized future than what had occured in the past. The “Dark Ages” are no longer dark because of the accomplishments of the forces of progressive change that had moved the entire planet away from barbarism and toward civilization.”

    You write the way President Obama speaks. I asked for specific facts and you still give me generalities.

    I really want you to do well in our conversation, so since you brought up the Dark Ages. Give me the people who were the evil Conservatives during that time period and then tell me the names of Progressives who heroically triumphed over them.

    Surely if you know what you are talking about, you can name names and give me dates and events. This is your moment to shine. This is your chance to do the impossible, open my closed mind. Don’t let me down. I’m pulling for you.

    • Alan,
      I am A High School dropout, and you are a college graduate, so far be it for me to educate you about the history of what is known as the Dark Ages. That being said, it appears to me that the reason that we are having a failure to communicate is because of the way we process the way we think.
      I come to my conclusions after viewing the trees and also the forrest.
      At ground level you only get a surface view of what you are looking at. You see the trees but you do not see the entire forest. If you got a birds eye view you would be able to see all of the trees and if a train was moving through the forrest you would be able to see not only the entire train, but you would be able to see where the train was coming from and where the train is going to.
      A surface understanding of the present past and future is I believe called “Empiracal Thinking!”
      People who think scientificaly must see a combination of that what is larger than the universe and smaller than the smallest element in an “Atom!” They must understand the changing “character” and “nature” of all things.
      The fact that our conversation is getting nowhere is because you are not able to understand what I am saying and I refuse to contemplate that what is far removed from the meaning of my conversation.
      Name names and dates about events has nothing to do with what I have been saying and does not prove anything.

  69. Mr. Walters,

    “I am A High School dropout, and you are a college graduate, so far be it for me to educate you about the history of what is known as the Dark Ages. That being said, it appears to me that the reason that we are having a failure to communicate is because of the way we process the way we think.”

    You are wrong about the reason for our failure to communicate. I am not that much better educated than you.

    You can not fully explain your beliefs to me because they are not based on an intellectual level. You have a faith based belief system. You have faith in Liberal Socialism. I am a heathen to what you believe. You picked up a couple of holy phrases like Dialectical Materialism, but you have never thought through their lack of meaning.

    You have a Utopian heaven where you believe we are all heading. Since it is taking a frustratingly long time to get there, someone must be to blame. You have cast Capitalists, Libertarians, and Republicans as the evil doers. Just now we have no head devil that you can focus on. Since George W. Bush retired to Texas, hell’s spawn has no leader. Once Republicans nominate anyone to lead the fallen angels back to topple Barak Obama from his heavenly throne, you will have a Satan again.

    • Alan,
      It appears to me that you havent understood or have fully read what I have written in the many posts that I have posted at this site. You continue to build up a straw man and characterize that straw man as being me and my belief system.
      This form of misrepresentation regarding your opposition to that what you regard as the enemy appears to be typical in the way that Right Wingers attempt to argue against their opposition and try to score points.
      The truth of the matter can be revealed by examining with an objective open mind the record of factual information that is accessable to those that are intellectually honest and wish to discover the truth of the matter.
      The way Right Wingers characterize Obama, the democrats and the issues that are on the table for consideration by the congress are so way out from what is reality that it is freightening and causing alarm in many circles of knowledgeable people throughout the USA and the world.
      Every thing that exists today has a life span and eventually what exists will no longer appear in touch with the conditions, circumstances and situation that happens to be our present. When this happens that what is no longer relevant and no longer making sense goes out of existence because it becomes excess baggage and not useful and keeps what presently exists from movimg forward into the future.
      Those that today are charcterized as “Republicans, will clash with those that are more in touch with reality, Republicans being not relevant or useful will go out of existence defeated by an emerging progressive socialist democratic coalition.
      This I do not believe will happen, this is what I know will happen!

  70. Mr. Walters,

    I know your philosophy better than you know it. I can actually explain it, you can’t. I know the history of it and if I wanted to, I could sell it better than you.

    Right now your hero Obama, along with Pelosi and Reid are proving that your ideas do not work. They have failed in California and New York State, previously. Chavez is failing with them in Venezuela, just as Lenin and Stalin failed with them in the USSR.

  71. Alan, you are so full of it I don’t know if I should laugh or cry!
    I don’t want to hurt your feelings but you are one of the most shallow and ignorant of all of the people that I ever had a conversation with!
    I have written extensively on this site and you have repeatedly misinterpeted what I have actually said and the way I supposedly think. You have consistently drawn conclusions about my world view that is a caricature and does not represent my thinking by a long shot. You are a fool for saying that you can better represent my views than I can. If you can you would do so rather than talk about how well you can do it.
    I m sure that their are others in this world that interpet world events the same way that you do, but there are few that would make such an ass out of themselves as you had just done.
    For the record, Obama and company are not socialists as you have repeatedly stated. They believe in CAPITALISM and are working to save that system of private enterprise by injecting a small amount of Keynsian economics into the system.
    I myself feel that capitalism should do what it can so that it can function in a positive way. But I am also aware as I have stated in many of my posts that there will come a time when it will become impossible because of inheirant contridictions that exist in the system of capitalism for the system to continue to be a viable system,. When that time comes the system will die and be replaced by the only system that can possibly take it’s place and that would be the diametric opposite of the system of capitalism and that would be the economic system of Socialism and after socialism their will be a system of communism.
    If I am so wrong about this prediction, why are the proponents of the system of capitalism so much opposed to socialists and communists.
    You have consistently made referance to the fact that socialism had failed and that fact is supposed to be proof that the system is not a viable system.
    The fact that the former Soviet Union failed does not prove that the system of socialism is a failed system. What it means is that the conditions and the life support that is needed for a system to continue to live was not present so the system died because of premature birth. For something new to come into existence all of the conditions have to be in place including a good support system that will nurture what is newly born so that it can develop and grow to it’s full potential, If the support is not there it will die a premature death.
    Because the conditions that gave birth to the old Soviet Union were not favorable for survival, and that is why it died and did not reach maturity. Because a socialist system did not survive inside the old Soviet Union, does not mean that socialism can never survive and mature when all the right conditions are present. Every Right Wing conservative knows instinctively that socialism is destined to take the place of capitalism. That is why there is this fierce and paranoid opposition to the socialist challenge to the capitalist system.

    • “I don’t want to hurt your feelings but you are one of the most shallow and ignorant of all of the people that I ever had a conversation with!”

      “You are a fool for saying that you can better represent my views than I can. If you can you would do so rather than talk about how well you can do it.”

      Dude, he’s an Internet Troll. Just ignore him. I can’t say at all that I’ve agreed with everything that you’ve posted here on this website or the way that you’ve chosen to present yourself here, but you are wasting your time with this troll. Starve him & be done with it! Live & learn…

  72. Mr.Walters,

    “I don’t want to hurt your feelings but you are one of the most shallow and ignorant of all of the people that I ever had a conversation with!”

    My feelings are of no consequence. Our ideas are what matters.

    “you have repeatedly misinterpeted what I have actually said and the way I supposedly think. ”

    That my friend is your fault. I have repeatedly pushed you to clearly explain your thoughts and you just give me Obama-speak, which means BS.

    I, therefore take your muddled words and translate them in to what I know of Socialism.

    Now I will give you an easy one. Google Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Look up his policies and explain to me the difference between what he is doing to destroy his country, and what a true Socialist would do in his place.

  73. Alan,
    My words are not muddled! It is your brain that is muddled that is why you cannot understand the words of Obama and you interpet his words as BS.
    President Obama is recognized by everyone in the USA and all over the world as being a great communicator! You stand alone by your assertion that “Obama Speak” is BS.
    In our conversation, on this site you exposed yourself as being confused as to the definition of that what you argue against. You could not explain the difference between Communism and Socialism, That fact alone should prove to those that are intellectualy honest that you do not know what you are talking and writing about.
    Hugo Chavez is a partisan in his nation and is interested in furthering the goal of those that had previously been exploited by the large local and foreign land owners, and those that work for a living, and against those that own for a living. Being partisan in what he believes and the way he acts, Chavez will have those in his country that will see progress and what is good for the country from opposite perspectives.
    The big business elements that no longer are at the seat of power will interpet what is happening in Venezuela, as their world falling apart. Those that were formerely exploited and persecuted by the combination of large land owners and foreign capitol are solidly behind Hugo Chavez.
    Hugo Chavez is a pragmatist and is attempting to do his best in transforming his country in steps and stages where a more tolerant equal and democratic country, will exist.

  74. Mr. Walters,

    Congratulations. Though I disagree with everything you wrote about Hugo Chavez, you explained it clearly. Then again, I am in no way important enough to contradict you and Danny Glover.

    Mister Guy,

    ” Dude, he’s an Internet Troll. Just ignore him ”

    I can think of two Progressive boards that would welcome you two gentlemen with open arms. Yet I only ever run into you guys on conservative or libertarian ones. Strange. One would think you might be more comfortable amongst your own kind.

  75. Journalizer,

    For all of the liberals saying they are for personal freedoms, they are all Statists. If you go back to Woodrow Wilson and then later the FDR New Dealers, they sought to combine Big Religion with Big Government.

    Now that the Atheist wing controls the Progressives, they have stripped away religion because now it conflicts with Big Government. Organized Religion has gone over to the Republicans and Libertarians.

    Big business as much as it is independent of Big Government is demonized and subjected to class envy. Business in general has to become part of the corrupt Big Government Machine to survive. That’s what God invented Lobbyists for.

    An example is under Obama-care the Drug Company lobbyists got taxes shifted from them on to Tanning salons which has a somewhat weaker lobby.

    Do not become too much against religious morality in legislation. When their standards are totally gone, there will be no standards.

    • I was trying to find common ground with the liberal to help better communicate.

      You are preaching to the choir, except I wrote that the Federal government should keep out of religion and leave it up to local governments.

      A better synopsis I wrote in a comment on another blog about the book The 5000 Year Leap: A Miracle That Changed the World.
      (BTW, I believe this book is too heavy handed with religion but if it can be read objectivily it creates profound illustrations of the brilliance in US founding):

      4. The Role of Religion.
      I have so much to say about this, but I will keep it short.
      First of all, the intention of our forefathers was to retain a concept that is the “entire foundation of all religious cultures world-wide” (pg 98). They believed in freedom for each individual to choose his own “sect” of religion but knew that “Without Religion the Government of a Free People Cannot be Maintained” (pg 75).
      By “Religion” I believe they meant a concept such as “universe logic”, “natural law”, “do unto others” and should not be pigeonholed by the contemporary misnomers such as “God” and “Religion” — because, let’s face it, the American government has succeeded in educating its people to hate those words. Perhaps our foundersm knew this is a threat because there are zero references to God in our constitution.
      Our forefathers recognized that it is an “essential need to teach religion and morality in the schools” (pg 75) and unfortunately this is not happening in our current culture. I write “unfortunately” not because I am religious or have any affiliation or love for organized religions, but because when a person does not believe there is any reality greater than oneself, then this person’s ego will grow exponentially. I believe that government is the collective ego. I believe that the miseducation of America to be offended by God opens the door for tyranny. A Godless society promotes materialism; ie, outward learning. This is why Ghandi’s philosophy of Swaraj promoted living inwardly and self governance.
      People do not understand that a “reality greater than oneself” can apply to things other than “faith” in an organized religion. There are many, many people with supernatural personal experiences with ghosts, aliens … even scientists cannot explain “gforce” or “Godforce” defined in Aether Physics as an unknown “God-like source that created the physical Universe.” That link even goes on to state, “The discovery of the Gforce is certain to become one of the important arguments for Intelligent Design as it provides solid evidence for God.”
      So, evidence suggests that it is ignorant to discard “Deism” such as our forefather’s subscribed. Not just ignorant, but destructive because denying it only feeds a person’s ego and selfishness because it negates any reality greater than one’s self.
      Another note, is that the forefather’s intention to separate church and state is misunderstood. On page 90-91 it is explained that the forefathers were referring to FEDERAL state and church separation. This is a HUGE misunderstanding today. The intention of our founders is “to keep the power base close to the people. The emphasis was on strong local self-government” (pg 23). For example the hierarchy listed on page 24 that should fall under Federal Government; State Government, County Government, Township, Family.
      The structure of that hierarchy has long been disintegrating.
      The above mentioned topics are not understood by contemporary Americans and I believe it is because our public schools and media are Government controlled and I think our government is seeking to promote itself and grow at the expense of personal freedom. It is sad that people do not inquire into these things because there is brilliance in the foundation of America and our constitution. If more people understood this, then they would comprehend opposition to many of the laws created in the past 50+ years. On the surface, the opposition to such laws as Row vs. Wade and Universal Healthcare is perceived as evil, mean or selfish. However, the true arguments to these laws is that they go against the freedom of self-government and instead create a blanket law forced upon the masses.

  76. Journalizer ,

    It is amazing if you research Progressive history in the US, how they have evolved. In the latest edition of National Review their lead article is entitled ” The four horsemen of Progressivism ” Richard Ely, John Dewey, Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. and Herbert Croly.

    American Progressives and Socialists actually have their roots in Bismarck’s Germany. The aftermath of WW1 and the failures of the Wilsonites put them in decline until FDR. The term liberal was taken on by these people because Progressive had worn out it’s welcome in America. Now that liberal is becoming a dirty word they prefer Progressive again.

    I said previously, the early Progressives combined Statism and Christianity. It’s actually very easy to do considering Jesus’ message of charity for the poor.

    Today’s Liberal-Progressives don’t know their own history. Tomorrows Liberals won’t remember today’s Liberal failures either.

  77. “I’m not stating ‘Right-wing editorials’”

    …no, you’re just linking to them as if they were “facts”, which is the same thing BTW.

    “The overall point that I am trying to make is that many people misunderstand that by opposing laws made by the government a person is not necessarily disagreeing with the morality of the law, but instead may simply believe that the government should not be involved in the issues of that law (moral, religious, personal values).”

    An abortion is a simple medical procedure, one which has complete Constitutional protection, period end of story.

    “I believe (as our constitution communicates) freedom is best attained through local self-government.”

    The U.S. Constitution “communicates” no such thing.

    “For instance our forefathers intended the hierarchy of power for creating laws should fall LEAST under Federal Government; more under State Government, even more under County Government, Township, then Family”

    Baloney, the idea of federal law supremacy has been a key component of Constitutional law for many, many, many decades now. Wake up…

    “I believe both are indoctrination machines forcing views on people”

    …but you apparently have NO problem with those purely religious views (especially ones which aren’t backed up by objective science!) being forced on everyone else! So much for “freedom” eh??

    “You are failing to argue any of my point because you are being irrational”

    …in your dreams that is my friend…wake up…your arguments are completely & totally contradictory as I have already clearly pointed out, period.

    “and that is EXACTLY the point I am trying to make.”

    No, it really isn’t…as I have clearly shown here.

    “I do not have any idea what you are referring to when you write, ‘NOW the GOP has been the Party of the blatantly racist ‘Southern Strategy’ and the preferred Party of the former Dixicrats’”

    Please…learn some basic U.S. history my friend. Do some basic searching on who the Dixicrats were & what the Southern Strategy is based on. Ignorance is truly bliss…

    “A simple google search of ‘KKK’ will reveail to you that the KKK in the Democratic party is very current”

    …in your wild dreams that is. Never heard of David Duke eh??

    “Robert Byrd is CURRENTLY (2010) a Democratic senator from West Virginia and he is an ex-Klansman. So was Al Gore’s father.”

    LOL…once again my friend, that was then & this is now. BTW, Al Gore’s father was NEVER in the KKK. When running for the U.S. House of Representatives in 1952, Byrd announced “After about a year, I became disinterested, quit paying my dues, and dropped my membership in the organization. During the nine years that have followed, I have never been interested in the Klan.” In 1997, he told an interviewer he would encourage young people to become involved in politics, but to “Be sure you avoid the Ku Klux Klan. Don’t get that albatross around your neck. Once you’ve made that mistake, you inhibit your operations in the political arena.” In his latest autobiography, Byrd explained that he was a member because he “was sorely afflicted with tunnel vision—a jejune and immature outlook—seeing only what I wanted to see because I thought the Klan could provide an outlet for my talents and ambitions.” Byrd also said, in 2005, “I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times… and I don’t mind apologizing over and over again. I can’t erase what happened.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/18/AR2005061801105_pf.html

    Al Gore, Sr. refused to sign the 1956 “Southern Manifesto” opposing integration. South Carolina Senator J. Strom Thurmond (a former Dixicrat!) tried to get Gore to sign the “Southern Manifesto”, but was told “Hell no!” Gore claimed that his vote against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was his biggest mistake. He did support the Voting Rights Act of 1965 though. Gore was one of the key targets in the Nixon/Agnew “Southern Strategy”; Spiro T. Agnew traveled to Tennessee in 1970 to mock Gore as the “Southern regional chairman of the Eastern Liberal Establishment”.

    “Democrats through out history AND NOW claim that ‘slavery was good not only for the slave holder, but also for the slave’”

    Sheer & utter nonsense! Once again, linking to a Right-wing editorial OPINION PIECE does NOT “prove” anything.

    • Dear Mister Guy,
      I am sorry I was wrong about Al Gore Sr. He just opposed civil rights.
      There is something you misunderstand. I am not attacking the Democrats. I do not take sides because I have no affiliation. I research the candidates and vote for the best according to my research.

      My concern is not with a particular party, my concern is with the government getting too big and impeding on personal freedom. Many of the laws the Federal government has made in the last 50 to 100 years should be left up to the States and local self government.

      On the rest of what you post, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. My research indicates that leftist laws stunt progress due to entitlements and welfare. I think that both parties have passed leftist laws. When I wrote, “Democrats through out history AND NOW claim that ’slavery was good not only for the slave holder, but also for the slave” I was quoting this article.

      I am a constitutionalist. I do not believe the struggle is between the political parties: that is a distraction. I believe the struggle is the people against the government.

      • What a bunch of “Anarchist crock” is this government hate!
        The nature of Government is what you make it and is not inheirantly evil.
        Mr Journalizer, I do believe, … is so much of a “Individualist” that he is sure that he can thrive and survive without anyone’s help no matter what the circumstances, situation or conditions of his surroundings. Those that are too weak to survive in his “made up world,”are not entitled to live, and deserves to die, … according to his interpetation of the world that we live in.
        “Governments” from the earliest times, to the present day were designed to keep in check those in the community that felt that they were not bound to the laws that were created by the “Elders” or the Councils” of the communities that they inhabited.
        The laws were created to create order and to prevent “chaos,” and “Anarchy” where only the strongest survive and those that are too weak to compete are destined to die!
        Those that desire the separation of people from government control are living in a fantasy world that does not exist and never did exist on the entire planet. Those that advocate this nonsense have been regarded by tribes and nations as anti social outlaws!
        The American Constitution was written by intelligent people that were cognizant of changing circumstances that will occur inside our nation, so they designed the constitution so that it would be a flexable document that would and could reflect the necessary changes that they were sure would occur in our nation as we matured with the passing of time.
        Those that believe that the constitution is a static document and does not allow for necessary progressive change, are not rational beings, and do a disservice to our nation and insults the intelligence of most Americans, and intelligent people throughout the planet.

      • “When I wrote, ‘Democrats through out history AND NOW claim that ’slavery was good not only for the slave holder, but also for the slave’ I was quoting this article.”

        Which, once again (and for the last time!), is nothing more than a completely biased, Right-wing opinion piece, period end of story.

        The GOP hasn’t been “the Party of Lincoln” for many, many decades now.

  78. Mr. Richards,

    ” The laws were created to create order and to prevent “chaos,” and “Anarchy” where only the strongest survive and those that are too weak to compete are destined to die!
    Those that desire the separation of people from government control are living in a fantasy world that does not exist and never did exist on the entire planet. Those that advocate this nonsense have been regarded by tribes and nations as anti social outlaws!”

    You are very good at stating partial truths. You leave out a lot. All of us can be outlaws and probably are at one time or another.

    In any society evil or misguided people rise to lawful power from time to time. By your standards anyone opposing lawful power is wrong. They certainly are antisocial outlaws.

    My heroes, the founding fathers were outlaws to the British Crown. Your heroes Lenin and Stalin were most definitely antisocial outlaws to the Czar.

    I’m sure that even if you did not participate, you sympathized with the anti war hippies, during the Vietnam war, protesting Government control over draftees.

    The founders knew that different factions would gain control of the US Government at various times. Just as the protections they put in the Constitution limited how bad right wingers could screw you socialists over, they are now barely protecting us from Reid, Pelosi, and Obama.

  79. Sorry I wrote Mr. Richards, I meant Mr. Walters.

  80. ALAN,
    The meaning of what I wrote on my post is that I oppose not activity against governments, including revolution, but what I oppose is the replacement of government with no government!
    Their are some conservatives that advocate for limited government and their are some that argue for the immediate elimination of all government activity and to replace government functions with pivate sector control.
    The latest Supreme Court Ruling that allows the unlimited use of corporate money for the purpose of influencing the direction of all government activity, is an example of the private sector’s attempt to overthrow the constitution of the USA and render public service no longer able to further the interest of the general public by the promoting the well being of the people as a whole!
    The economic resources of big capital will smother any attempt by average americans to get their message before the public and the private sector’s rule will be, “THE PUBLIC BE DAMNED!”
    The overwhelming power of unlimited capital that can be used for lobbying and buying off politicians the media and other opportunists in the private and public sectors of our economy, and dictating to all americans the way we should think vote and act can only be described as the beginning of a fascist America where the private sector will rule with out the pretense of being a democracy. The direct Rule of finance capital has always been understood as the rule of FASCISM!
    If those of you that think that I am an alarmist with regard to what I have just written, will have a rude awakening when social security and all of our benefits and safety nets that are suppoed to protect us, especially during bad times are no longer regarded as desirable because they are a negative force against the maximizing of profits in the marketplace.

  81. Mr. Walters.

    ” The direct Rule of finance capital has always been understood as the rule of FASCISM!

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

    has several definitions for Fascism.

    ” a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
    2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control ”

    All of us fear a strong Central Government, when it is controlled by our enemies and that it could be turned against us. Libertarians favor a limited government, which is the opposite of Fascism. Fascism is similar to Socialism in that it wants a strong government. It also believes in a top down economic plan. Could the government clowns run a Circus better than the folks who worked all their lives in one ? I believe you have some life experience in that field.

    Right now a Socialist Party rules the US. Socialists hate private businesses because they are an independent power structure. In N.Korea the Socialist ruling elite would rather it’s people suffer poverty and starvation, rather than let free enterprise create wealth. Just what is your opinion on that?

    Corporate influence potentially could lead to a form of Fascism. Right now Socialist influence has lead to a just as dangerous ism. I will always take my chances with a J.P. Morgan over a Joe Stalin.

  82. If the “NEW WORLD ORDER” is a global economic system of private capital that operates to enrich the largest holders of private capital, on a global scale, the NEW WORLD ORDER is already here.
    The “Global Economy” is at this point in time our present day reality!

    The concentration of economic power in increasingly fewer competing global economic entities was a logical and therefor predictable result of a capitalist system of competition where the larger economic entities consume the smaller less competitive economic entities.

    The political state is a function inside of a capitalist state that has the responsibility to protect the national economy
The “NATION STATE” cannot exist inside a world that has grown from a economy of local national power to that of a economy of world wide global proportions

    It is a logical conclusion to conclude that capitalism has outgrown “Nationalism” and can only continue to grow as a system, by abandoning the accompaning system of nationalism and attach itself to the larger system of globalism.

    The former capitalist system of “National Competitive Capitalism,” will logically be replaced by a system of World Wide Capitalist Cooperation, of totalitarian proportions.
    It will no longer be possible to compete without tearing itself apart in a competitive frenzy!

    This “New World Order” is logically destined to increasingly become our future. But every cause creates a corresponding effect, and the reaction to a “CAPITALIST WORLD ORDER,” is a world order that is designed to give economic and political power to not the capitalist few, but to all of the people in the world without discrimination.
    This condition can only come to fruitation by replacing the “New World Order,” with a more advanced “New World Order,” that has a planned world economy that is designed to profit all of the people in the world equally.

    Without competing nations in the world, and without competing capitalist entities, at each others throat, it can be logically assumed that the future eventually will become a future without war and conflict.
    This non competition will be so, because of non existent competing Nations, and because of developing science and technology.
    The more advanced “New World Order” will be able to provide an increasingly more social and scientific population, a future that will become abundant in what is needed to thrive as individuals.
    Inside a social cooperative integrated one world society, earthlings will be able to share the experiences of all cultures instead of dominating cultures and destroying the culture that was dominated as it was in our competitve past!
    BRING ON THIS NEW WORLD ORDER!

  83. Mr. Walters,

    I have no interest in your Marxist sales pitch. Reading it is as boring as listening to a Barak Obama speech. How about answering my question on N. Korea?

  84. Alan:
    What I had written is not a sales pitch as you assume that it was.
    I am not attempting to sell you or anyone else on this site a marxist sales pitch.
    or a capitalist sales pitch, or any kind of ideaology so as to poison your mind, so that you will no longer be able to function and think in the same way as you had during your entire life time.
    I was sure that the content of what I had written would be boring to you because I knew in my heart that the content of what I was writing was way over your head and that when you don’t understand what is being said and you wish to dismiss it because it is confusing to you and causes you to fear what you do not understand, the natural thing to say is that it is a sales pitch of no consequence and that you are bored.
    The reason that I present my views on politics and life, at this “Right Wing site” is because I enjoy interacting with views that are at a polar opposite to my views. My main motive is my enjoyment and if you become enlightened, so be it.
    When I write about what will happen in the near and distant future, I do so becaue of what I know of what happened in the distant and near past, and what is happeningin in the immediate present.
    With pure logic and a large birds eye perspective of what is occuring all around you, and all around the world, you too, can overcome your surface understanding and your fear and hate of progressive evolutionary change.
    If you believe that what was good enough for your daddy is good enough for you! … So be it!

  85. Mr. Walters,

    ” The reason that I present my views on politics and life, at this “Right Wing site” is because I enjoy interacting with views that are at a polar opposite to my views. ”

    I don’t mind you being opposite in your views to me. I enjoy destroying your arguments. What I mind is your refusal to argue point for point with me. You post a mass of dogma and call it the truth. When I dispute your points, you merely post another mass of unproven dogma. You really don’t know your own subject.

  86. Alan,
    Your words expose your ignorance on many levels. You are as ignorant of what the meaning of “DOGMA” is as you are ignorant of the differences between “Communism” and “Socialism.” You appear to be a collector of not verifiable information, but only opinion pieces, from unreliable sources, that are only interested in presenting talking points, that are used to present a false picture to sway an ignorant audience and make the gullable think that you know what you are talking about.
    The points that you bring up that you want me to argue with you about, are points that are not relevant to the conversation that I am having with you, so the only purpose your points would serve would be as a distraction from the content of what is being said.
    You have often accused me of presenting “DOGMA” in my arguments with you.
    I am a “Social Scientist” therefor I do not BELIEVE!… I only know, or I don’t know. Belief is the absense of knowledge, that is why those that are believers must have “blind faith” in what they believe in so as to erase doubt from the equation.
    “Dogma” is a religious expression that is anti science because it relies on faith and not evidence to state what is true and what is false.
    There are many people on the extreme right wing of the political spectrum that have a religious fundamentalist way of determining what is true and what is not true. Their belief system is to not accept verifiable facts as the way to go so as to determine what is true and what is not true. but to only accept the “Dogma of their religious teaching on the basis of FAITH!
    The scientific evidence of what I say on the subjects that I expound on, are founded on concrete evidence that are a part of our past, our present and will eventually, become our future.

  87. Mr. Walters,

    You say you are not dogmatic because your beliefs are not religious.

    I say you are dogmatic. Dogmatic is ” Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles. ” ( thefreedictionary.com )

    You said ” The former capitalist system of “National Competitive Capitalism,” will logically be replaced by a system of World Wide Capitalist Cooperation, of totalitarian proportions.
    It will no longer be possible to compete without tearing itself apart in a competitive frenzy!

    This “New World Order” is logically destined to increasingly become our future. ”

    I say this is dogmatic because you can’t prove it. It certainly is an arrogant assertion.

  88. Alan,
    The purpose of science is to be able to” predict outcome,” relative to verifiable factual information. The more verifiable facts in your posession, the more probability that what you state is true, is actually true.

    The evidence is overwhelming that as sure as day follows night that opposites attract and also repell. The interaction of opposites is predictable. It is also scientificaly accurate to state that physical and social change will take place as a consequence of this interaction of opposite forces.
    With the knowledge of the basic nature of what exists, it is possible to predict what the character will be that will naturally flow, from that basic nature.
    All things everywhere are constantly changing. This change, according to science, occurs as something that is sometimes gradual and sometimes sudden and abrupt. all change develops and matures in steps and stages.
    Everything that comes into being eventually will go out of being because that what no longer exists is replaced by that what is more in harmony with that, what is the changing conditions, that is the nature and character of it’s environment.
    When I state that “COMPETITIVE CAPITALISM” on a national stage will advance to the stage where the diametric opposite stage will take place, and that is the stage of ” “COOPERATIVE CAPITALISM on a global stage.” This is a scientificaly accurate prediction and is becoming clearer with the passing of time, that the large economic entities are merging in increasingly larger exclusive global multi-nationals that cooperate with each other so that they can arbitrarely control the worlds supply and the world’s demand, thus determining the climate of when to buy cheap and sell high. In other words Free Enterprize has changed to the opposite of what it was. It is now a Controled Private Enterprize.
    American Capitalists are no longer National Patriots that are not concerned with the well being of American Labor or small business or the American Consumer, they have moved on to the world stage, and they as a world class of dominators, will cooperate among themselves to enrich themselves by exploiting all those that are not of their cooperating world class of world dominators. This state of being can only be described as “WORLD FASCISM!”
    This is happening now and it will become more extreme wth the passage of time.
    Those that want to go backward’s to the time of small business dominance, and the rugged individualism of our historical past, has missed the train that only moves toward the future.
    IT IS SCIENTIFICALY PREDICTABLE!

  89. Mr. Walters,

    Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

  90. Because the backward population of the USA are ignorant and fearful of moving forward into the future, they can only stomach what is or was familiar to them.

    That what existed in our near or distant past.

    The “Right Wing of the political spectrum is dissatisfied with what exists in our moderate Centrist present, and they are in fear of the unfamiliar future, so the only way for them to go, is backward, into our familiar traditional past.

    All traditions are born to eventually die. Nothing lasts forever. When traditions are no longer RELEVANT to the naturally existing and changing circumstances, situations and conditions, the traditions go out of existence, and a new more relevant tradition comes into being. A new tradition that is more relevant to the changing times.

    That new more relevant tradition is called, “LEFT WING PROGRESS.

    Because life is a learning experience it is impossible to go backward into time or to stand still inside our present circumstance, situation, and condition. ‘
    The only movement that is possible is the movement away from the past and toward the future.

    There are times when our fear of moving forward is so powerful that we move backward into the old traditional ways of our no longer relevant past.

    The people soon find out that the old traditions are not compatible with our modern experiences, so that the one step backward is replaced by two steps forward, into the more relevant future.

    In other words, “Life is a learning experience!”
    You cannot stop progress.

    Capitalism like everything in the universe, evolves as far as it possibly can, and will grow until it can grow no more, and then it will commence to die.
    Capitalism has entered into a necessary, new and advanced stage, so it can continue to grow and not die.
    That new stage is the stage of “WORLD WIDE GLOBALISM”

    This NEW WORLD ORDER that is now changing the shape of things all over the world, will bury all Nation States and will bring into existence a world economy controlled by a “World Oligarchy” of large world wide finance capitalists, that will rule the planet, without regard to a shrinking working class, because of labor saving technology, and without regard to a shrinking middle class, that will become swallowed up and devoured by the oligarchy of world wide capitalists.

    This Fascist dictatorship will rule ruthlessly without mercy, toward those that will be considered, not a part of the world system of capitalism, because the disposed middle class, and the no longer employed working class, will no longer be consumers, …so they will be regarded as disposable, by a fascist conglomerate of world wide proportion.

    The writing is on the wall for those that are able to see.
    If you know what is destined to be, you can prepare to destroy that, what is the culmination of a history, that began with the ownership of private property, under the system of Feudalism, and will end this system of exploitation, by private property, as soon as the exploited victims, realize what is happening to them and why.

  91. Mr. Walters,

    ” Because the backward population of the USA are ignorant and fearful of moving forward into the future, ”

    You have the sheer arrogance of the Obama supporter. I am glad you losers are on his side and not on America’s side.

    ” will end this system of exploitation, by private property ”

    Some of us like our private property and will not give it up to a bunch of Bolsheviks.

    ” This NEW WORLD ORDER that is now changing the shape of things all over the world, will bury all Nation States ”

    Won’t happen. Americans are already turning against Obama. Even Democrats in Congress are beginning to abandon him. The tide has already turned against you old Communists in Amerika.

  92. Alan:
    I am attempting to show you what is the scientific “cause and effect” of national and world change on the world scene, …and you insist on reducing everything to your immediate preoccupation with the Obama administration.

    By repeating the talking points of unreliable sources that are not relevant to what I am posting, leaves me with the impression that you are not able to understand the meaning of what I post.

    I don’t expect you to agree with what I am writing but I do expect you to understand the content of what I am writing about so that you do not digress into simple talking points that have nothing to do with what I am saying.

    The points that I am consistently making are, that their exists in America and throughout the world a way that science can predict what will happen in the near and distant future. By the scientific understanding of the past, and the present, it is possible to predict what will inevitably be our future.

    This science of social change is important to know because it will eliminate that what becomes a unnecessary obstruction to that what is inevitable and necessary in the struggle to resolve conflicts and contradictions within the stages of human and social development.

    If you can see beyond the horizon and know with scientific certainty what will be the inevitable consequence of a movement in a particular direction, you can change the direction of that movement and the inevitability of it’s consequence.
    Otherwise humanity is doomed to repeat it’s mistakes forever.

    The “Center” of the political spectrum will forever be a brake on human progress. They will always prevent us from moving too fast into the future, and preventing the birth of what is destined to be, to not come into existence prematurely, and not surviving because of the lack of life support.

    When the “Political Center becomes no longer relevant to the constantly changing conditions in our existence, it will no longer be able to prevent progressive change to take place.

    The “Left Wing” of the political spectrum, will eventually bring forth into existence the necessary conditions that will resolve the contradictions that were present under the previous administration of society.

    The “Right Wing” of the political spectrum has always been and always will be the “Voice of the Near and Distant Past!” It represents our past traditions and our past history and because they are never relevant to our constantly changing conditions, they will always be at odds, with those of the “Political Left” that can sometimes attempt to bring forth, that what is not mature, and ready enough to survive, the conditions of “Right Wing” and “Centrist opposition.

    The Agents of progressive political and social change have brought us out of the regressive system of Nomads that hunted and fished and traveled freely over large land masses and were not settlers that settled on private land.

    It was the progressives that had the good sense to overthrow the primitive system of hunting and fishing for their lively hood and opted for settling down on private property and raising crops and farming animals and engaging in commerce.

    Capitalism was more progressive for the people that lived in that capitalist society because it produced more of what was needed to survive and thrive than did the previous society of hunters and fishers that roamed freely over all of the non privatized land.

    It was progressives that moved capitalism from it’s early stages of limited agriculture production centered in the countryside, to factory production in the towns and villages. It was capitalist progressives that evolved capitalism to become the economic center of cities, then states, and then the economic center became NATIONAL , and at each stage of capitalist growth, capitalism became, more sophisticated became the process of production and distribution, and the more of the wealth that was produced could be distributed to more of the people

    Capitalism created for the first time in human history a large middle class, and also a working class that were forced to organize as a class so that they could share more of the gross national product, that was in the hands of those that owned for a living.

    The theory of the “Labor Theory of VALUE” became instilled in the consciousness of organized workers all over the world.

    The theory that all value is measured by the amount of necessary social time it took for workers as a class to labor and produce from the land and from the mines, and the factories, products and necessary services to satisfy the needs of society.

    The exchange of the value of a bushel of wheat, can be exchanged for a bushel of corn if the amount of social labor time is equal in the production of the two items.

    In other words true value of what capitalism produces is created by labor alone and the private property of land owners, factory owners, etc. does not produce anything of value until labor power becomes the force that creates a thing of value.

    That conclusion being logically made it can only be concluded that all profit is robbery from the class that produced all value.

    This contradiction between Labor and Capital is one of the many contradictions that will weaken and finally destroy the system of Capitalism!

  93. Mr. Walters,

    I’m sorry, not only do I oppose you ideologically, but I find your use of the word science to be unfathomable. In other words, I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

    How you believe that scientifically you can predict the inevitability of any form of a global society amazes me. There are so many random elements of chance that shape us.

    I looked up scientific method and found a lot to use against your arguments. First the researcher (you)should be unbiased. You are not unbiased, neither am I. You have a stake in how the science comes out. I doubt that you or any of your fellow social change scientists made allowances for this.

    I suggest you look up Scientific Method.

    http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

    You’re giving progressives credit for people changing from nomads to permanent farming communities. Do progressives then get the blame for the environmental damage these farmers caused relative to the nomads ?

    What exactly is your definition of progressive ? Someone who moves society forward . By that definition the Nazis were progressives, because they sure moved the German nation forward.

  94. Alan,
    The NAZIS were not “PROGRESSIVE, and did not move the “German Nation” forward, as you so wrongly state.

    The Nazis were a Right Wing movement. Much like all Right Wing Movements that existed then and now.

    It was a movement that moved in the direction of the barbarism that existed in our uncivilized past.

    The character and the nature of the right wingers is what separates them from moderates and progressives. They are cruel, narrow minded, and filled with tribal fear and hate, about everything that exists, that is foreign to their narrow minded provincial way of thinking and acting.

    When you equate the political left, with the political, right you set yourself up as a person that is ignorant about history and politics.

    Politics is about movements. The only direction that a political movement can move is toward the future, the past, or the movement can stand still inside the present. If you do not know that you know nothing about world and national politics.

    Your approach to understanding politics is so fragmented and lacks any kind of cohesion that I am not surprised that you are so confused and see only randomness in your attempt to understand the nature of political change.

    If you studied science you would know of the connection of all things to each other. The randomness that exists is the ignorance of that what is not yet known.

    It is no big thing in predicting future events. It may appear so to those that see the world as a series of random events. Your lack of being able to connect the dots is probably why you say that science cannot predict outcome, or future events.

    When science says that a particular cause will create a particular event because of having verifiable evidence that the event will happen. That is science predicting the future.

    My suggestion to you is that you move away from your unscientific grasping of sound bites and talking points, so as to explain your ideological position but instead you should rely more on verifiable scientific data to prove your position.

  95. Mr. Walters,

    It is amusing to converse with you. You don’t have a clue about science and I am failing to explain it to you. Let me try this. You have a hypothesis. You have to test your hypothesis. Since your ultimate predictions are in the distant future, you cannot test your whole theory. Why don’t you make partial predictions, for say the coming year, based on your theory. If they come true, you have some credibility. That my friend is science.

    So you think the Nazis were not progressives. I’ll give you two arguments to support that theory. First they did PROGRESS forward in changing Germany in to a far different society. That seems to fit your theory about forward change. You did not specify good change. Second the Nazis were Statists. They believed in the power of the big State to control individuals and limit freedom. They were thus a ONE party nation like Soviet Russia.

    Now tell me a story about how Progressives are not Statists and do not believe in severely limited personal freedoms. That they do not believe in bureaucrats ruling over people.

  96. Alan,
    You seem obsessed about being controlled by a “STATE APPARATUS” but you seem not concerned by being controlled by a “CORPORATE APPARATUS that uses State Power to control you and your environment.

    Your concern about being controlled by forces that limits your ability to exercise your individual freedom, falls on deaf ears, because you are blind to that what is really controlling in a capitalist society.

    What controls a capitalist society is “CORPORATE POWER.”

    A “Political Government” that has a political apparatus to maintain order and the rule of law inside that what it rules, does so because it does not want the society that it rules to fall apart and be replaced by a different ruling authority.

    The progressives are not blind as you appear to be as to what differentiates the nature and character, of political states.

    You have to really be stupid as you appear to be, to believe that freedom is to be free of political government power.

    The ruling power of governments exists because there are those inside that what is being governed that are a threat to the social structure, so they are restrained from disrupting and tearing down that what was built.

    This activity that occurs within all governments are natural and to be expected.

    Only morons would expect that governments under threat of being disrupted or overthrown would not use martial law or force to eliminate that threat.
    The amount of freedom that you enjoy is not determined by whether it is a right wing government or a left wing government. It is determined by the internal conditions that exist at a particular point in time.

    Right Wing governments are more inclined to use torture against their enemies, because they are a throw back toward “BARBARISM and an enemy of civilization.

    The nature of the government that existed in Germany was “Fascist.” The character of that fascist state was “NAZI!” .. Characterized by being “Racist” and “White Supremacist.”

    Fascism is recognized the world over as being the direct rule of finance capitalists. If you do not acknowledge that as being objectively true, you are an ignorant fool!

    By saying that the NAZIS were Progressive tells me that you are confused as to the direction that points forward and the direction that points backward.

    The people that you hang around with are backward looking and are traditionalists. They are fearful and express hatred to those that want to improve on that what existed in the past. and what exists in the present.

    They are backward looking and moving reactionaries that are the opposite of the forward looking progressives, that want to improve on what existed in our past and want to move forward, into an improved future.

    Alan, you will never get off of the dime as long as you insist that you are correct in everything you say. I am not opposed to you giving me an argument that I do not know what I am talking about. But so far your arguments are ridiculously and embarrassingly false. They do not stand up to the scrutiny of history or science.

    If you read my posts they will reveal pretty much where I stand on the forward movement of history, and what constitutes standing still and moving backward.

    What I have written has been tested by actual occurrences in our known history of the past, and by the objective observations of the present, and the most likely changes that will occur in our future.

    You have consistently shown that you are unable to discern what the nature of historical change is, and what is the content of scientific discovery that is a part of our present day heritage.

    Your Libertarian upbringing has seriously limited your perspective in discerning what exists in the world, for you to discover.

  97. Mr. Walters,

    ” What controls a capitalist society is “CORPORATE POWER.” ”

    I CAN BUY STOCKS IN THOSE CORPORATIONS, and become a part of that. Right now you Bolsheviks control my country and until the next election, me and my fellow Americans are screwed.

    Anyway,,, can you please give me a time line for all that you predict ? A year, 10 years, 20 years, 100 years ? Because if it’s 1,000 years from now it has no relevance to my life .

  98. ALAN,
    What I have explained in the many posts that I have written on this site is that of a process that started at the very beginning of time and has continued into the present time and will continue into the future.

    What I have written about is happening now and will continue into the future, but it will not make an impression on “Numb Skulls” that are too thick to have it sink in.

    You really have to be dense not to be able to see that everything that exists will go through a process of change.
    With scientific technology we can see things that you cannot see with the naked eye.
    We know that even a “rock” goes through that process of matter in motion.

    Everything in the universe evolves to a higher state. Everything will eventually fall apart and then come together on higher plane than previously existed.

    This is how all things in the universe evolves. It is a refining process, that moves from the simple to the complex and then back to the simple again, but the simple on the second time around is more complete and complex than that what was simple and complex on the first time around.

    When a person invents something new, and decides to improve on it, the inventor will refine the invention so that it is smaller and is capable of doing more than the larger more cumbersome model.
    Nature does the same thing.
    It is called EVOLUTION!

    Society evolves just like everything else in nature.
    When you can understand the process of evolution, you can understand where you are within that process and where you had been in that process and you can predict, where you are going within that process.

    I have attempted to do that in my conversation with you, but you appear to be conditioned by a non scientific approach and insist on standing still, or attempting to move backwards rather than growing and refining what you already know.

    I have already predicted about what is in our near future and indicated that you should catch up to the social change that had already occurred.

    I will repeat this change so you can start catching up to our new reality, and become more in tune with the world as it exists.

    Capitalism in our historical past was a system of “free enterprise.” The practitioners of the Free Enterprise System” were believers in competition and in rugged individualism.

    The purpose of competition is to dominate your competition by grabbing their customers and dominating the marketplace.

    You could become “King of the hill” by destroying the competition, or taking them over and making them into a “cog in the wheel,” of your free enterprise.

    Under the conditions of competition, eventually the process will turn to its opposite and you will no longer have a “Competitive Free Enterprise System,”

    The system will predictably become, a “Competitive Private Enterprise System.”
    With the passage of time and the concentration of capital into continually fewer and fewer capitalist competitors hands, it would logically follow that it would serve the interests of the surviving big corporations to no longer compete, but to merge their capital interests into a large conglomerate and cooperate, so as to control to a continually larger extent the capitalist marketplace.

    What has happened before our very noses, is that “Competitive” Private Enterprise,” has transformed itself to a “Cooperative” Private Enterprise.
    It is now no longer a “Free Enterprise System,” but it is a “Controlled Enterprise System,” that is too big to fail and is no longer a “National Interest!”

    Capitalism is too big to remain a “National” entity with national interests. It has graduated, and is presently a “Global” entity with only global interests.

    This globalization of capitalism, will with predictable scientific certainty, be the beginning of the end, of the “Nation State,” as we know it.

    Without a collection of outmoded and no longer useful nations to contend with,
    Capitalism will rule a “Global Village,” so to speak, with an iron hand.

    The world will become a collection of global consumers that will become slaves to those that will control the supply and also the demand of that what is necessary to survive and thrive.

    The only interest of capitalism at this advanced stage of development, would be to exploit without mercy, those that are the consumers of the world, and they will do so, by controlling supply and controlling demand, and there by controlling the exploited price that you must pay to survive within the system.

    This absolute power by capitalists will be akin to fascism only on a qualitatively higher and more severe level.

    This prediction of a capitalist fascist world rule may not reach the boiling point if those that are the victims of this fascist capitalism, revolt, …and put in the place of a world economy of a fascist capitalist oligarchy, and replace it with a planned economy that is designed to profit all of the people in the world equally.

  99. Mr. Walters,

    Do me a favor, read this article on Noam Chomsky.

    http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/thornton071004.htm

    The man is a well known liberal BS artist. That is how I view you, except that you are unknown. You have given zero specifics, zero facts. All you ever post is unlimited pages of dogma. You constantly preach science, yet you know as much science as the climate gate liars of East Anglia.

  100. ALAN,
    It is very easy to say, that I am not speaking scientific truth! That everything I say is Bull, so should be disregarded because it is NOT SCIENTIFIC AND IS nonsense!
    If that is true, PROVE SCIENTIFICALLY THAT WHAT I SAY IS NOT TRUE!

  101. ALAN,
    I have just read the article that you recommended on NOAM CHOMSKY.
    That article was the most obvious piece of hate propaganda that I had ever read in my entire life.
    Wow, If that is the type of source material that you rely on to give you insight into the thinking and writing of this particular college professor, you are a lost cause.
    The entire long piece of crap that was written about Naom Chomsky and about what his writings and philosophy was all about, their was not one instance where the article quoted what the professor had to say about his world view.
    I suppose the writer of the article did not want to be sued for libel!
    If this is the kind of source material that you believe represents factual information, you have to be on the deep end of the credibility pool, and if you don’t watch yourself you will choke to death on what is being served up to you for you to swallow!
    I know of Naom Chomsky and what was written about him, was a total LIE!
    You should be ashamed of yourself for spreading that crap around.

  102. Mr. Walters,

    Thank you for taking the time to read the article. I disagree with your opinion of the article. You seem to know Mr. Chomsky better than me. I came to be aware of him, through the term Chomskyite, with which other writers have labeled Mr. Olbermann.

    I found another word you can look up to describe your arguments Sophistry .

    http://greenlightwiki.com/sophistry/sophistry

    “sophistry is unreasonable argumentation that suggests that if you aren’t persuaded by it, you’re being unreasonable.”

    You certainly argued that I am being unreasonable by not being persuaded by you.

    ” PROVE SCIENTIFICALLY THAT WHAT I SAY IS NOT TRUE! ”

    If you had a clue about science you would know that you have asked an invalid question. You have cited past events and used them to predict a future state of human development. How can I prove or disprove something that has not happened? If it ever does happen, then you are right. If it never happens, you can say that it has not happened yet.

  103. ALLAN,

    What I have repeatedly sited in my posts are trends, that started at the beginning of time and are continuing today and will extend into the future.
    If you were able to understand the cause and effect of what had occurred within this process you to, would be able to predict the inevitable occurrences that have taken place in our distant past, our present time and what will inevitably take place going into the future.

    Your blindness toward connecting the dots, and your understanding of all occurrences as being random manifestations that do not have a beginning or an ending is the reason why you continue to stand inside our historical past and refuse to move forward into a future. A future that is more relevant to our changing times.

    The conservative movement that you cling to, are fearful of that what is foreign to they’re understanding of what exists at the present time. They cling to the traditions that had relevance inside the environment of that what existed in our early american history,

    Some of your right wing friends are infatuated with what was happening during the days of slavery, and white domination over all nations and races, that they believed were too inferior to not be dominated and controlled by the superior white race. It was called “White Man’s Burden!”

    Some conservatives reach back into the distant past and would like to return to the time of the inquisition and before the period of the enlightenment. Some would like to return to the barbarism of the “Dark Ages

    Most conservatives feel that WAR is a noble and glorious occupation, and that military strength and conquest is the only way to go, in a world where we cannot trust foreigners and foreign nations.

    This mistrust and hate of everything that is different from our tribe, and the desperate need to dominate and control those nations and tribes because of our natural superiority is the dominant characteristic of the “Right Wing” in America and in the world.

    The tendencies to move away to the opposite positions of Right Wing dogma has been the role of the Left Wing Progressives.

    The failure of conservatives to recognize necessary progress when it s about to happen, and when it does happen, is why conservatives are behind the times, culturally and historically. They are the last political group to recognize modern music and modern ways of doing things. They are always out of touch with the up coming generation. They are always behind the curve.

    If conservatives want to catch up to modern political thinking and not be regarded as “Political Dinosaurs,” I suggest that you recognize that we are no longer living inside a “Free Enterprise Economy.” We are living under the conditions of a “Private Enterprise economy.” We no longer have a “Free Market Economy.” We have a “Controlled Market Economy.”

    The “Nation State” as a functioning entity will no longer be our governing force, as we move into the “New World Order” of “Globalization.”

    The cooperation of Massive Conglomerates, World Banks, and International Finance Capitalists will control and dictate every aspect of economic life.

    The “Free Market Economy,” is now a part of our, “never able to return to economic past!”

    Remember!! You heard it here FIRST!

  104. Mr. Walters,

    ” What I have repeatedly sited in my posts are trends, that started at the beginning of time and are continuing today and will extend into the future. ”

    Fair enough, but trends do not always continue. Look at how the political winds go back and forth with in out country. Sometimes what we are seeing is really a pendulum which can only swing so far, before going the opposite direction.

    ” If you were able to understand the cause and effect of what had occurred within this process you to, would be able to predict the inevitable occurrences that have taken place in our distant past, our present time and what will inevitably take place going into the future. ”

    History is a hobby of mine. I would dare to guess that I’ve forgotten more than you have read. The only inevitability that I believe is history repeating itself. What you predict has only happened regionally and never world wide. It may happen, But with any luck it won’t. It certainly is not inevitable.

    ” Most conservatives feel that WAR is a noble and glorious occupation, and that military strength and conquest is the only way to go, in a world where we cannot trust foreigners and foreign nations. ”

    So are you in the pacifist camp ? What do you think of the British and French policies of the mid 1930s towards Germany ?

  105. Alan,
    I am not a “Pacifist. But unlike some conservatives that love the profits that they can accumulate during a expensive war. I am on the side of those that are in opposition to the FASCISTS!

    It has been the political Right Wing that Politicians have supported to not only make blood money over the years, but to push a Right Wing Fascist agenda, of pitting one group of people against other groups so as to consolidate their fascist dictatorial control. Divide and conquer was the way of rule by fascists like Franco of Spain, Mussolini of Italy, and Hitler of Germany.

    The Fascists were raping Europe and Killing millions of men, women and children and the “Republican, American First Committee” was agitating the view that America should become isolationists and not get involved in the war against Fascism, and to “not pull the” British chestnuts out of the fire,” so as to help England in the war against Nazi Germany!

    The “Fascist American Isolationists,” kept America from going to war against the “NAZIS” until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor!

    I have been consistently against “Fascism,” in war and peace, and your heros it appears have been championing the fascists, all over the world.

    I am not a pacifist, but unlike your fascist friends, I do not glorify war or champion those that make blood money, from unnecessary wars!

    Life is a learning experience, so we eventually get off of the dime and move forward, so each generation becomes much different than the previous generation.

    Only Right Wingers are blind to the forward march of history!
    What occurred in the past will in time be mostly forgotten, because it is no longer relevant to the conditions that exist today.

    The south will never rise again. Capitalism will never be like it was in the past. Science will become the dominant force in the world and replace “Religion.

    All religion will take a back seat within the power structure of world power.

    Socialism will replace capitalism, Communism will replace socialism within the scheme of social change.
    And the Right Wing all over the world will grow up and become more scientific in it’s understanding of social change.

    This is a correct assessment of what is just around the corner for our planet.

    The BLIND will never know what hit them!

  106. Mr. Walters,

    Where do I begin ? You never answered my question about Britain and France’s policy towards Germany in the mid 1930s. Could it be you don’t know that bit of history ?

    It is relevant because that is when Hitler could have been stopped, while he was still weak.

    ” I am not a “Pacifist. But unlike some conservatives that love the profits that they can accumulate during a expensive war. ”

    Okay Mr. History, what American wars were undertaken for profit ? You tend to speak in overly broad declarations. I ask for specifics.

    ” The “Fascist American Isolationists,” kept America from going to war against the “NAZIS” until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor! ”

    That is incorrect. If FDR had gotten involved against the Axis before Pearl Harbor, he would have been vilified like George Bush over Iraq. Also except for the VolksBundists the isolationists tended to be pacifists who did not want to repeat WW1.

    ” Science will become the dominant force in the world and replace “Religion. ”

    Science has become religion to you guys. You have corrupted it. It no longer seeks truth. The whole global Warming science is an example.

    ” Socialism will replace capitalism, Communism will replace socialism within the scheme of social change.
    And the Right Wing all over the world will grow up and become more scientific in it’s understanding of social change.

    “This is a correct assessment of what is just around the corner for our planet. ”

    So you are a Communist ? Communism has always failed to provide every place it’s been tried. ” just around the corner “. When , when, when ? Specifics, please !

  107. Allan,

    I am not like you, I am old enough to have lived HISTORY, I didn’t need to read about what happened in the 1930s.. I lived it! You’re understanding of that period of time, is prejudiced because of the Hitler and Fascist apologists that are a heavy influence on you’re understanding of that historical period of time.
    So as to enlighten you about that time in history, I will attempt to set you straight.

    After world war 1 Germany had been defeated and Europe was tired of the German habit of continually starting wars across Europe.

    After Germany lost world war 1, Europe and America decided at “VERSAI,” that the nation of Germany should be reduced to a non Industrial Nation, and that they should not be allowed to have and operate heavy Industry. This “Versai” treaty after the first world war, set the stage, of what was to happen in the following years.

    Hitler used the “treaty at Versai, as a propaganda tool to whip up German mass support for his coming to power. By building up the threat and fear of communism and playing on the resentment of the German people over the conditions of unemployment, that was world wide at that point in time, Hitler came to power by having his Nazi Party burn down the German Reich-stag, and then blamed the Communists for the deed,

    He declared martial law, and became the dictator of Germany, supported by his Nazi Party.

    The rise of Hitler of Germany, Mussolini, of Italy, and Franco of Spain was understood to be an effort by International Capital, that included major finance capitalists, World Bankers and international investors, all of which were well known, in the USA and elsewhere throughout the world to build up Right Wing Fascist Dictatorships so as to further globalize capital all over the world, and to use Fascism as a tool to fight the “rise of Communism.”

    Mussolini made statements that he was the chosen dictator to rule on behalf of the international capitalists and that he was their loyal servant. It was American capital, and capitalists all over the world that secretly and openly helped in building up Hitler and his military might.

    It was Bush’s grandfather that was publicly indicted for acts of engaging with the enemy during a time of war.

    In the struggle between Labor and Capital all over the world it was clear that the large property owners all over the world favored Right Wing Fascism to fight communism and would support fascist dictators rather than, “Democratically elected leaders, to get the job done.

    The struggle between Democracy and Fascism is an ongoing struggle in the USA and the world.
    I am for Democracy that is guaranteed by the constitution and enforced by the USA government.

    It appears that you are not for the government enforcing a democratic government. It appears that you are for the Capitalist Class enforcing a fascist class rule on America and the world.

    For the record I am not or have ever been a communist party member. I am a social scientist that recognizes that capitalism will one day end its world rule and the only option possible is for socialism to take the place of world capitalist rule.

    As a social scientist, I can come to no other conclusion, then that socialism will be replaced by communism.

    It is difficult for me to understand how you can be so dense as to not understand what is common knowledge about how to define and interpret the meaning of what is socialism and what is communism.
    This well known understanding is not even something that is debatable. I have explained to you the meaning of these two concepts many times. It is not a mystery. It is well known by those that are for the concept and those that are opposed to the objectively stated concept.

    When you question what is so obvious, about people that profit during a time of war, and assume that this does not occur, I believe that even your Right Wing friends would be surprised at this assertion.
    Perhaps you should ask your friend Dick, the former vice president, about all of the blood money that he and his corporation made from the exclusive government contracts during the Iraq war.

    Your insistence that I give you a specific time table when I predict that one thing will take the place of another thing. This type of prediction of specifically when it will happen is impossible to predict because there are too many variables to be specific.
    But I can scientifically state that what will happen will happen because it is the only thing that can possibly happen.

  108. Mr. Walters,

    ” This type of prediction of specifically when it will happen is impossible to predict because there are too many variables to be specific.
    But I can scientifically state that what will happen will happen because it is the only thing that can possibly happen. ”

    Typical BS. Whenever I pin you down you punt the ball. How about at least giving me a century this will happen in ? And when it happens, who is to say that is the final condition .

    “I am a social scientist that recognizes that capitalism will one day end its world rule and the only option possible is for socialism to take the place of world capitalist rule. ”

    Could it not evolve again ? At any rate you can’t ‘scientifically’ state anything. You are not trained in science . “social scientist” There ain’t no such animal.

    ” I am not like you, I am old enough to have lived HISTORY, I didn’t need to read about what happened in the 1930s.. I lived it!”

    You must have been a child prodigy to be so aware of international events. I did not become that aware of such things until my late teens.

    ” to further globalize capital all over the world, and to use Fascism as a tool to fight the “rise of Communism.”” At least partially true. SOME capitalists did that. To brand them all is not fair.

    ” It was Bush’s grandfather that was publicly indicted for acts of engaging with the enemy during a time of war. ”

    That is not what my research shows. Prescot Bush was a director in a company that was owned by a German industrialist. The company was seized in 1942 by the US gov. and later returned after the war. Please show me your proof that Prescot Bush was indicted as you say he was, because I found no proof of that.

  109. Allan,
    “Prescot Bush” was a sympathizer of the NAZI PARTY, and his investments were global and he along with the international investment banks in “America” as well as the banks all over the world, conspired and did create cartel arrangements with German Industrialists that served the cause of the “Nazis” in Germany and elsewhere. Prescot Bush was an active participating member of that global conspiracy, that helped Hitler and the Nazis come o power in Germany and helped the German cause, during a time of war!
    Everything that I have just stated is a part of the public record and could be verified if you were an objective observer and was truly interested in revealing the public record.
    The fact that our EX president’s grandfather, Prescot Bush was INDICTED for “engaging with the enemy, during a time of war!” has been documented in news paper accounts of this treasonous act against the USA, and is an objective well known fact that is a part of the history of America during that particular time of before and during the “WAR AGAINST FASCISM!”
    To say as you did that there is no proof that what I stated actually occurred is false and only shows how inept is your ability to do research.
    When I predict what will most likely happen in the future, it is a prediction that is a general assessment, not a particular assessment of what most likely will occur in the near or distant future. I am not a fortune teller that is out to separate you from you money by telling you what you want to hear.
    The fuller your factual information is, the more likelihood that your prediction will become an ongoing fact.
    When I predict that “Socialism” will follow Capitalism as an economic system, I do so because I am aware of the history and characteristics of capitalism and also that of socialism.
    I am fully aware that the nature and character of everything that exists will change to the opposite nature and character when the circumstances, situations and conditions change to the opposite of what it was.
    The boiling point that causes a liquid like water to turn into a vapor like steam is an example of predicting the cause of temperature changing extreme cold on water turning to solid ice, moderate warm temperature turning solid ice to a liquid water and extreme heat on water, changing water from a liquid to a vapor. It is predictable that you can change solid matter into a not solid energy.
    All of what I just explained is scientifically predictable! It is also changing everything to the opposite of what it was.
    The past, present and future can only be understood by understanding the dynamics that are present in physical and social change.
    You can refuse to not learn from science but if you do so yo will remain in the dark ages of non scientific thought.
    You Libertarians are still stuck inside the non reasoning past! You still believe that we can return to the “good old days,” of “free enterprise,” and of “equal opportunity” to become “filthy rich.” You refuse to understand the present day reality. You do not understand that we as a nation living under capitalism has changed and is changing and will change in the future that is far removed from the system that existed in the past and that the only direction that the system of capitalism can move toward is the opposite of what existed in the past and toward a future that is will become gradually less competitive between capitalist enterprises and more cooperative and probably within your life time you will witness a “free enterprise economic system” that had changed from that of “free enterprise” to “private enterprise” and then to that of a controlled enterprise system that is no longer national in character, but global.
    The evidence of this change is overwhelming, and the demise of the “Nation State” on the planet earth is as predictable as under certain conditions, matter can be changed into energy. It is also scientifically predictable that capitalism will change into socialism and socialism will change into communism. It is scientifically predictable because it is the only possible change that can happen.

  110. Mr. Walters,

    I am afraid that you are so emotional, that you fail to read what I actually wrote. I did not say there was no proof that Prescot Bush was indicted publicly for engaging with the enemy . I said I failed to find proof . I then asked you to provide that proof.

    Instead of providing proof of what you stated, you ranted about how inept I am. OK Mr. Scientist, show me the proof !!!! I find it strange that you did not do so. I also find it incomprehensible that a man ” publicly indicted for acts of engaging with the enemy during a time of war. ”” could have been elected to the US Senate in 1952 and stayed until 1963. I mean,,,,, doncha think that the guys running agin him would think to bring that up in a political campaign ?

    ” I am not a fortune teller that is out to separate you from you money by telling you what you want to hear.
    The fuller your factual information is, the more likelihood that your prediction will become an ongoing fact.
    When I predict that “Socialism” will follow Capitalism as an economic system, I do so because I am aware of the history and characteristics of capitalism and also that of socialism. ”

    You are no scientist either . I admit I can’t prove what you say won’t happen. I hope it doesn’t. But again, your whole argument is that your logic is so infallible that your prediction must happen .

    There has to be a way to test your theory, otherwise you really are just a fortune teller .

  111. If the “NEW WORLD ORDER” is a global economic system of private capital that operates to enrich the largest holders of private capital, on a global scale, the NEW WORLD ORDER is already here.
    The “Global Economy” is at this point in time our present day reality!

    The concentration of economic power in increasingly fewer competing global economic entities was a logical and therefor predictable result of a capitalist system of competition where the larger economic entities consume the smaller less competitive economic entities.

    The political state is a function inside of a capitalist state that has the responsibility to protect the national economy
The “NATION STATE” cannot exist inside a world that has grown from a economy of local national power to that of a economy of world wide global proportions

    It is a logical conclusion to conclude that capitalism has outgrown “Nationalism” and can only continue to grow as a system, by abandoning the accompanying system of nationalism and attach itself to the larger system of globalism.

    The former capitalist system of “National Competitive Capitalism,” will logically be replaced by a system of World Wide Capitalist Cooperation, of totalitarian proportions.
    It will no longer be possible to compete without tearing itself apart in a competitive frenzy!

    This “New World Order” is logically destined to increasingly become our future. But every cause creates a corresponding effect, and the reaction to a “CAPITALIST WORLD ORDER,” is a world order that is designed to give economic and political power to not the capitalist few, but to all of the people in the world without discrimination.
    This condition can only come to our reality by replacing the “New World Order,” with a more advanced “New World Order,” that has a planned world economy that is designed to profit all of the people in the world equally.

    Without competing nations in the world, and without competing capitalist entities, at each others throat, it can be logically assumed that the future eventually will become a future without war and conflict.
    This non competition will be so, because of non existent competing Nations, and because of developing science and technology.
    The more advanced “New World Order” will be able to provide an increasingly more social and scientific population, a future that will become abundant in what is needed to thrive as individuals.
    Inside a social cooperative integrated one world society, earthlings will be able to share the experiences of all cultures instead of dominating cultures and destroying the culture that was dominated as it was in our competitive past!
    Social and Economic Engineering is a predictable consequence of a past no longer relevant.
    Unplanned competition and a separatist non social communities are no longer possible in a world that has advanced it’s technological know how to the extent where it is now possible to create a material abundance, so that all of the people that inhabit the planet earth can be materially and economically secure.

    BRING ON THIS NEW WORLD ORDER!

  112. Mr. Walters,

    Are you sane ? I asked you to back up your statement on Bush and you ignored it .

    I cannot read the sheer volume of your writings without being bored to tears . Maybe you could shorten your stuff .

    Also since you still believe that capitalism will die and the whole world will thus be in this new world order, what is your take on the rise of the capitalist states of Asia, verses the decline of Socialist Western Europe and Socialist United States ?

  113. Alan:
    The reason why I have ignored giving you proof of the “Bush Family connection” to global fascism, is because I know that you will ignore and not accept my evidence and misconstrue everything I say about the subject, that is a recognized part of our american history… Enough has been said and all of it has been recorded in volumes of books so it is easy for you to do the research if you are sincerely interested in doing so.

    The effects of the global economy and the change that it is bringing to the entire world is something that is making you Right Wingers “crazy” and wanting to have “Tea Parties” and to overthrow the government that is no longer in step with your desire to become like it was in the “good old days’ that existed in our no longer relevant past.

    The IGNORANCE of those on the Right Wing side of the political spectrum is so extreme that they do not know or understand what is happening in the world and in their small provincial communities. They are looking for someone to blame, a “scape goat” perhaps that could be the reason for their frustration and disappointment about all the unfamiliar but necessary change that is occurring all around them.

    They blame our government, the Communists, Socialists or the “DEVIL” that is the cause of their unhappiness. They blame it all on conspiracies by Capitalists, and by the “Trilateral Commission,” by Secret Organizations inside the competing religions in the world. The Catholics are to blame or perhaps it is the “Hated Jews.” Or it could very well be that BLACK FACE that occupies the “White House.”

    These frustrated “Right Wingers” are ignorant of the process that is continually shaping and changing us and the environment around us.
    When you are ignorant of normal and natural processes that are at work in the world , you reach out to strike everything that is foreign to you. You don’t trust anyone or anything. YOU BECOME PARANOID!

    I have attempted to show you the process that will enlighten you in a scientific way so as to make you familiar with what happened in the past, what’s happening in the present, and what most likely will happen in the future.

    You can prefer to remain as you are, or you can choose to learn something that you knew nothing about. That only you can decide.

    You questioned me on the present status of what is occurring in Asia, Europe and the USA. You wrongly characterize the world as being socialist or capitalist.

    The truth of the matter is that the entire world at this point in time is moving toward a global capitalist world.
    The resources of the world is in the hands of global capitalists that are moving away from capitalist competition and toward capitalist cooperation.
    This capitalist class will attempt to dominate the world of consumers in a dictatorial manner by sharing the wealth with the few dominant capitalists, and increasingly exploiting everyone and everything as much as they possibly can.

    So the dominant class of cooperating capitalists will get richer and richer at the expense of those that will become poorer and poorer.

    This condition of capitalist rule is classically defined as “Fascism!”

    It can be logically predicted that the only organized force that can and will go against this world fascism is the force that organizes themselves to take the means of world production out of the hands of those fascists that control it so as to enrich the few, and to place the means of production and distribution into the hands of those that will enrich the many by instituting a planned economy that will distribute to each according to their need and receiving from each according to their ability.

    Alan, my advice to you is to no longer accept familliar sound bites as evidence of what is happening around you.

    Do not be afraid to think for yourself.

  114. Mr. Walters,

    I just spent an afternoon communing with nature in the deep snow of the Pennsylvania woods . I am physically exhausted yet refreshed mentally enough to read through your previous statement of Sophistry .

    ” This condition can only come to our reality by replacing the “New World Order,” with a more advanced “New World Order,” that has a planned world economy that is designed to profit all of the people in the world equally.
 ”

    This I believe distills the essence of your overly long argument . I will now point out your fatal flaw . Your Centrally Planned World Economy has to be run by somebody, correct ? You never mention who these people are . Why do you think the people on your Central Committee will be virtuous, capable, and not oppress those they rule ?

    I will now tell you who they will be . The Central Planners will be the same bureaucrats who are trying to run the EU and bail out Greece . They are failing . They will be the same bureaucrats who ran the USSR and the Warsaw Pact in to the ground !

    Oh,,,, and your explanation concerning the Bush grandfather is a cop out . Of course I will attack it if it is not credible . You and I are arguing ideas . You should not post outrageous things that you cannot defend .

    And to get to something you currently said about planned economies . I can give you success stories about capitalism . Capitalism always recovers from it’s downturns when not taken over by Socialists . Now I dare you to give me examples of how planned economies have succeeded . Science demands a track record !

  115. Alan,
    Your ability to understand the “written word” appears to be as limited as your memory of what I had previously clearly explained.

    You are constantly asking me to prove and show a record of success of something that had not happened as yet, but it is a prediction of what will most likely happen in the near and distant future.

    My understanding about this process of social change is something that there is enough evidence, that historians, social anthropologists and social scientists, are mostly in agreement with me, that what I have stated,in my posts, is grounded in science.

    I doubt that there is a credible scientist that would disagree to the scientific proposition that science can predict a future outcome. That certain causes will create a predictable effect.

    When you attempt to build a understanding about anything that exists in the world, you consider the opposites that exists and the alternatives to that what exists in the world. Thinking pro and con within a framework of what is possible and what is impossible.

    Those that cling to the idea that capitalism as a structured system would not eventually turn from a positive force in the world to a negative force, is thinking in fixed, dogmatic unscientific primitive ways. This unscientific process of thinking was a common way of determining truth, before the emergence of scientific thought.

    It is a observable fact, that for the most part, that the world’s resources are securely held in the hands of the capitalist powers, and because of that fact all nations that want to survive and thrive must out of necessity cooperate and become a part of global capitalist economics.

    The “NEW WORLD ORDER,” is a system of “GLOBAL ECONOMIC ENTITIES,” from Capitalist and Socialist nations that have and will merge their enterprises and with the passage of time it will become impossible to distinguish a capitalist enterprise from a socialist enterprise. They will become as one.

    The people that are for what is known as “Free Enterprise” and “Socialism” will feel betrayed by this GLOBAL NEW WORLD ORDER, and will cling to a non functioning “NATIONALISM” to show their displeasure toward a Monolithic Global World Order, of Capitalist Economic Entities.

    With the passage of time the NATION STATES of Capitalism and Socialism will no longer be able to function because the “World Resources” would be controled by the New World Order.

    The only option for those that are clinging to their no longer able to function “Nationalism,” is to uniite with all non functioning nations and create a global enterprise of struggle against those that want to keep the wealth of the world to themselves.

    And for those that want to spread the wealth to satisfy the needs of all of the people.
    This what I have just stated is a prediction based on scientific understanding of the past and the present!

    Because it has as yet not happened, it is impossible to present a track record of a successful conclusion.

  116. Mr. Walters,

    ” You are constantly asking me to prove and show a record of success of something that had not happened as yet, but it is a prediction of what will most likely happen in the near and distant future. ”

    You won’t budge, will you ? Again for the umpteenth time, for some reason you believe you know what is best for all of us and that it will happen . You know if you want, I could give you the name of two liberal boards where you’d fit right in .

    ” You are constantly asking me to prove and show a record of success of something that had not happened as yet, but it is a prediction of what will most likely happen in the near and distant future. ”

    You are so full of it . What you have is a theory . A theory of a top down controlled world economy . Correct me if I’m wrong . It is a system, just like capitalism is a system . You advocate your system on a global scale . Now any scientist or engineer would first prove a system would work in a small scale model . Then he or she would test it on gradually increasing sized models until it was ready for a large scale unveiling .

    ” And for those that want to spread the wealth to satisfy the needs of all of the people. ”

    This has been tried many times and has failed, particularly in larger numbers of people . So why would you think it could work globally ? AND PLEASE answer my specific questions, instead of your usual evasion . Just answer my questions .

    ” This what I have just stated is a prediction based on scientific understanding of the past and the present! ”

    You are the typical Communist . Somewhere you read literature that taught a corruption of scientific method to argue that science validates your fantasy .

    I have ripped apart your arguments and all you do is act like your hero Obama and say I just am not capable of understanding your divine wisdom .

    OK, just what are your qualifications ? You probably are more qualified than Obama is to say your peace .

  117. Alan:
    “You are so full of it . What you have is a theory . A theory of a top down controlled world economy . Correct me if I’m wrong . It is a system, just like capitalism is a system . You advocate your system on a global scale . Now any scientist or engineer would first prove a system would work in a small scale model . Then he or she would test it on gradually increasing sized models until it was ready for a large scale unveiling”

    The above quote by you is revealing to me that you are not able to understand the meaning of what I write on my posts.

    Most “Right-wingers” are incapable of thinking with their “intellect” so they rely on their “instinct” to understand their surroundings. I mistakenly thought that you would perhaps be different.

    “Instinctive Thinking” is a primitive way of coming to conclusions so that the human species could survive inside their primitive environment.

    Using “Individual Intellect” is a higher form of evolution, that enables more highly evolved humans to be more aware of they’re highly evolved surroundings.

    I have not “advocated” that one “ECONOMIC SYSTEM” was better than another and because of that we should choose one system over another system. Only in your immature brain did this supposition emerge.

    The fact of the matter is that what I have been trying to make you aware of is the scientific understanding of the process of how all things on our planet and in the universe changes from one thing to another thing. How everything evolves from something very simple, (like your brain), to something more complex. Scientists call this phenomenon “EVOLUTION!”

    It is a recognized scientific fact that humans on the planet earth have evolved from something that was a simpler form from what they are now. Also humans had evolved their societies from a simple hunting, fishing and gathering society of nomads, to a more advanced society of feudalism, and then capitalism.
    Because of the evidence of what occurred in the past is the way some of the more intelligent humans can ascertain what will happen in the future.
    Only extremely stupid and frightened people do not learn from the past and learn how to evolve into the future.

    A “Top Down Society,” is structured with a Master and Slave relationship like in the system under “SLAVERY,” or a society that has a ruling class of “Royal Families” over “Serfs as under “Feudalism,” and also a ruling class of “Capitalists,” that rule over the class of “Workers.”

    A Democracy is an attempt to level the playing field between the exploiters and the exploited.

    Under the theory of Socialism you have a dictatorship of the class of workers that attempt to keep the former dictatorship of the class of capitalists from returning to power.

    Socialists according to their stated ideology will attempt to create the conditions and lay the foundation where Communism will replace Socialism and create for the first time in human history a classless society where the political state will wither away

    You will no longer have a state apparatus rule over the citizens because the citizens will have an economy of planned abundance that is distributed equally to all of its social scientific aware citizens.

    The citizens need not have a state apparatus to force them to be social because they will volunteer to be social because of a socially secure environment of cooperation rather than competition.

    According to the writings of those that advocate for communism you will have an administration of things not an administration of people.

    The fact that I am stating from communist writings what they believe in is not to be construed as my advocating for Communism.

    Being a Social Scientist I am just telling it as it is.

    It is a fact of life that the capitalist economy has changed from that of a “National Economy” to that of a “Global Economy.” Even your “Right Wing” soul mates will agree with that assertion.

    “The NEW WORLD ORDER” is declared to be, by your paranoid Right Wing friends, as a secret conspiracy by evil doer’s.
    I have explained in my posts that it is not a conspiracy, but it is the natural evolution of a capitalism that has outgrown “Nationalism,” and has now entered the predictable stage of “Globalism.”
    I had in my previous post indicated that it will naturally change from a world system of capitalist competition to that of capitalist cooperation on a world scale. That particular mode of global economic change will inevitably cause the demise of the existence of Nationalism and the Nation State all over the world.

    This prediction by me is radical and probably I am the first to predict the consequences of this occurrence.
    But what I have declared is logical and most likely the only thing that can happen so it most likely will happen.

    Again, I am not advocating anything, I am only predicting what most likely will happen and why it will happen.

  118. Mr. Walters.

    You still do not have the guts to engage me in a civil conversation . You state positions that I attack and you ignore my words . I read your biography a while back . For an old man you are ignorant of human nature .

    ” The citizens need not have a state apparatus to force them to be social because they will volunteer to be social because of a socially secure environment of cooperation rather than competition. ”

    A thousand no’s . People are lazy and selfish when not working for themselves . This will not happen .

    ” Under the theory of Socialism you have a dictatorship of the class of workers that attempt to keep the former dictatorship of the class of capitalists from returning to power. ”

    This you actually got right . Extreme Socialism has to have a dictatorship to exist . Because it has to destroy the people’s freedom . If I run a successful business the Socialist must take my profits and give them to others . As a successful businessman I would be a threat to the system . Unlike you , I can give examples of that which I speak .

    The two examples of what your brand of Socialism leads to in the real world are , Stalin’s Soviet Union and Kim Jung-il’s North Korea .

    ” The fact that I am stating from communist writings what they believe in is not to be construed as my advocating for Communism. ”

    I really wish you would be honest, you are not . I enjoy our mindless arguing because you are the only pure Marxist I’ve ever personally encountered . Be who you are . Do not equivocate .

  119. Alan,
    You are still insisting that human nature does not change but remains the same, no matter what the changing circumstances, situation and condition of a person’s surroundings.

    This particular delusion is “alien” to the thinking of all scientists.

    I have always been astounded that, in this day and age, there are still people that insist on holding on to the theory, that human nature is unchanging.

    It is you Alan that are ignorant of the human condition. It is your ignorance that allows you to come to your uninformed conclusion that people “are lazy and selfish if they are not working for themselves.”

    It was the slaves under the system of slavery that built the pyramids. It was the owners of slaves that were lazy and got fat on the labor of those that they abused,

    The wealth that was acquired by plantation owners in the American south was built on the backs of the chattel slaves, that labored picking cotton and thus making the selfish plantation owners, rich lazy and fat.

    The slaves owned nothing, but they along with the exploited workers of America made the lazy, selfish, fat owners of America, rich and powerful, by their labor and their work ethic.

    For you to say that if you don’t own what you are working at, you will become “lazy and selfish is an insult to those that by the sweat of their brow labored and built America,

    It has been only the socialists in America and everywhere else, that has insisted that it is only right that the workers as a class should own the means and tools of producing wealth so that the wealth that their labor has produced should go back to those that are the true builders of wealth.

    Those that are the workers, not those that are lazy and selfish, (the lazy and selfish, exploiting owners of private property).

    Those that had their brain evolve to a higher level than “Right Wing” Ideologues, understand that when conditions are present that eliminates desperation because of an economy of enough of what is necessary to satisfy the material needs of yourself and all of your neighbors, that the people under those conditions will not compete because they know that there is enough to go around to satisfy everyone’s need. Sharing and cooperating becomes the nature of those living in that kind of an environment

    When there is scarcity it becomes necessary to compete with your neighbors so as to get yours before that what you are competing over runs out.

    The human nature conforms to what is compatable within an environment.

    You have to be stupid not to understand this simple logic.

    Every government that says that they are a socialist government and are holding on to power over the objections of the majority of the people, are not truly a socialist government.

    They are destined to eventually be overthrown, because the conditions are not in keeping with a successful socialist system of government.

    Socialism can only function when it is popular with the masses of working people.

    When I mention that socialism at the early beginning of its rule will establish a dictatorship of the working class. The reason for this dictatorship is obvious to those that have a grain of intelligence.

    The dictatorship is necessary to protect the class enemy of capitalists from returning to power and overthrowing the revolution of the working class.

    It is ignorance of the highest order not to circle the wagons and demand strict discipline so as to protect what was recently gained.

    It is similarly stupid that those that are for capitalist rule would not resort to a fascist dictatorship so as to protect a capitalist society from being overthrown.

    It is common sense to come to the conclusion that when the threat subsides under the system of socialism and capitalism you will have a corresponding relaxing of dictatorial power over the people living under capitalism and socialism.

    You have to be an idiot not to know that.

    I am a social scientist, That being so it becomes necessary for me to examine the evolution and revolution of societies in a manner that is objective and not to prejudge as a matter of determining what is good and what is bad.

    Being a scientist and a dialectical materialist I have related from a scientific perspective the meaning of capitalism and the meaning of socialism and communism.

    If my explanation appears to be in your eyes not an objective view of the struggle of classes for dominance. Perhaps it is because you are so subjective that objectivity is beyond your understanding.

  120. Mr. Walters,

    You and I argue . Neither of us likes what the other says . But I do believe that for the discussion to have value, we must be honest . I have been totally honest with you . I do not believe you have been honest with me .

    ” I am a social scientist ”

    There was another liberal “Guy” on this board who called himself a scientist . When I asked him to give me his credentials proving he was a scientist, he would not do it . I ask you now for some proof that you are a scientist .

    Am I supposed to just take your word for it ? Like I’m supposed to take your word about everything else you cannot give any proof of . Like say your logic .

  121. Alan,
    What you are demanding from me is certification that I am an accredited social scientist, within our system of global capitalism.

    When I was going to school almost a century ago, I was attending a class that was called “Social Science.”

    The “Conservatives” of that “era” went crazy and argued that you could not understand society scientifically, and that those that claimed that you could were rotten communists and that they should all die horrible deaths for asserting such a subversive doctrine.

    A short time later the name of my “Social Science class” was changed from “Social Science” to “Social Studies.”

    I believe that in many of our schools and institutions of learning that this conservative and bigoted prejudice against the teaching of “Social Science” to our young students is something that still prevails in this modern era.

    The prejudice toward the Scientific Method in understanding phenomenon and social change is especially prevalent in communities that believe strongly in religious dogma.

    My claim to being a “social scientist” does not come from an accredited place of academic learning.
    I am a “High School Dropout” so I claim this distinction of scientific social awareness, to my understanding of “Dialectical and Historical Materialism.”

    This study remains the only avenue that exists that can and will teach a scientific approach to understanding social change.

    Perhaps you may think that what I have stated is nonsense.

    The evidence of my scientific approach to what I have written is in the posts that have appeared at this site.

    If you think otherwise, so be it!

  122. Mr. Walters,

    As I said, you are dishonest in your arguments . By your logic I can call myself a Marine Biologist because I like to read books with pretty pictures of creatures swimming in the ocean .

    I do not care if you are a high school drop out and want to base your arguments of human nature on your life experience surviving on the mean streets of the World for 80 plus years . You don’t even do that .

    You read some theoretical Communist books on “Dialectical and Historical Materialism.” You fell in love with the philosophy because it gives you away to rationalize the total failure that is your life . Then you call it science . It is total BS .

  123. Alan Scott,
    It seems that it is impossible to explain to you the meaning of the “Scientific Method.”
    You automatically reject what is known and accepted by everyone in the entire world as a way of thinking.
    A way of thinking that is much different, from the way we arrived at our conclusions before “science,” was generally accepted, as an alternative to the dogma, that was the teaching of the church.

    The philosophy of “Dialectical and Historical Materialism” was the first scientific revelation, that clearly explained how scientific understanding can explain how and why social change took place in the past and is taking place in the present, and what social change will look like in the future.

    The fact that our capitalist society is fearful of a scientific method that can scientifically prove that Capitalism has within its social structure, irreconcilable contradictions that will eventually be the cause that will create the effect that will topple the system of capitalism and replace the system of capitalism with the system of Socialism.

    The fact that this scientific discovery is being swept under the rug by the powers that be, is evidence that the system of capitalism is fearful of the public getting a scientific understanding of how and why societies change.

    To believe that Capitalism will be a positive force in the world and will not change with the passage of time from what it was, to what it is, and to what it will become in the near and distant future is incredible stupidity.

    Those that ignorantly believe that all social change is the result of subversive activity that changes that what is already perfect to that what is imperfect, is a rationalization by those that fear and hate that, what is unfamiliar.

    This is why the Right Wing hate and fear merchants, go crazy when they are confronted with the possibility of a future that will challenge what exists in the present and what existed in the past.

    The crap in their pants Right Wingers, and the stuck in the past Libertarians, should grow up and face the changes that will certainly occur in the future, like forward looking progressives.

  124. Mr. Walters,

    ” It seems that it is impossible to explain to you the meaning of the “Scientific Method.”
    You automatically reject what is known and accepted by everyone in the entire world as a way of thinking. ”

    For you to talk about Scientific Method is like an Atheist invoking the name of Christ . You are totally delusional .

    ” The philosophy of “Dialectical and Historical Materialism” was the first scientific revelation, that clearly explained how scientific understanding can explain how and why social change took place in the past and is taking place in the present, and what social change will look like in the future. ”

    What angel revealed this vision to what Communist Prophet ?

    What you have written on this board is no more intelligent than what you have posted on your website . Why did you even bother to copyrite it ?

  125. Alan,
    When are you going to wise up and open up your mind to the facts that are indisputable and are the objective reality that you refuse to recognize, opting instead to live in a no longer relevant past.

    Your fear and hate of all that represents the present, and what will become the future, keeps you and your “Right Wing fellow travelers” rooted inside a belief system that no longer is a living part of America or a living part of the present day world.

    Your insistence that what existed in the past was perfect and that all movement away from that so called perfection that existed at the founding of our nation was a “conspiracy” by those that were “Un-American traitors” that did not love America as much as those that felt that their was no need to criticize and improve that what was so perfect.

    What you and the unthinking Right Wing “Patriots” mistakenly call “Love of Country,” was and is nothing but “BLIND INFATUATION!”

    Undying loyalty can only exist inside the minds of those of the population that are blind and ignorant of the need and desire to get rid of the old and bring forward the new. This is common sense thinking and you have displayed in your posts, the mind set of an ignoramus that appears unable to grasp what is and has been so obvious from the beginning of time to the present day.

    You and your kind hate everything that is unfamiliar to you because you are so stupid that you are convinced that you would not be able to adjust to, and be comfortable living inside an unfamiliar environment. Even if that unfamiliar environment was a necessary evolutionary improvement of what formerly existed.

    You and your Republican friends are just about finished as an influence in American and world politics. Most Americans have evolved beyond the mind set of the ignorant fearful and hating elements that represent only 30% of the population.

    This 30% of the population is so stupid, that they will destroy all political elements that they attach themselves to.

    The recent success of the democrats effort to commit to a much needed health plan, despite the ignorant based opposition of the Tea Party crowd, Republicans, Libertarians and corporate power, was a sign of the coming demise of 20th century Right Wing party influence in American politics.

  126. Mr. Walters,

    What is your track record in making predictions ? How about giving me just one that ever came true . You predicted your one creation would become a children’s classic, you predicted the other would be destined to be an American Classic . How’s that working out for you ?

    To me, your utopian predictions would be horrible if they came true . The more I read your other stuff, the less I worry . Your hero Nobama is at the height of his power . The momentum away from Socialism, Stalinism, Obamism is building . Once the real people begin paying for your idiot’s vision, they will reject him . See people like you don’t pay taxes . That’s why you don’t understand . You’ve gotten government handouts your whole life .

    You think you are owed .

  127. Allan Scott,
    Everyone in a democratic society deserves as a right, to become educated, be employed, so they can earn a living, and also everyone in a democratic society deserves the right to receive the finest medical care that is available.

    You out of touch Republicans are at this point in time are so much not twenty-first century.

    Republicans are still are thinking in 19 h century terms. And that is “only people of means should be educated, and that the poor classes of people should suffer because they are poor,” and in your republican eyes, “the poor are the scum of the earth, and the rich are the salt of the earth!”

    Your belief that “the reason that poor people are poor is because they are lazy!” is a belief that was held by the snobs of Europe that believed that because they owned private property that only they and their class deserved to live well and the common people did not deserve as a “right,” to be educated, or to have health care, or to have proper nutrition, or to receive a decent wage, for their labor.

    Every thing that the common people should receive from the property owning class was to be simple charity

    That charity was regarded as a privilege, granted by the privileged class of the aristocracy, to the common people that they ruled over.

    This charitable giving by the aristocracy was frowned upon by those that believed in a democracy.

    It is now regarded by forward progressive thinking people as not a privilege to be granted by a privileged class, …but a guaranteed right under the democratic law of the land.

    This “right” has been, in the later part of the 20th and the beginning of the twenty-first century the way that a true democracy works.

    The Conservatives and their cruel undemocratic thinking, are so much out of the twenty-first century that they will surely go the way that all political parties that are out of touch with modern thinking goes. They will disappear from the stage of our political reality.

    Their will be a new political realignment, and the republicans and their conservative way of thinking will not be a part of this new political realignment, because they are no longer relevant.

  128. Mr. Walters,

    Like all liberals, you’ve lied about what we Conservatives believe . “the poor are the scum of the earth, and the rich are the salt of the earth!” is not our view. Funny how you brought up European Aristocracy . As you know, what replaced it in Russia failed, Comrade . In fact it murdered the people it said it cared about .

    Just because you started life on the bottom and decided to stay there, do not condemn the American dream .

    And tell me this, since you care so much about the poor. If those books of yours’ actually were to make you rich, would you give it all away to those poorer than you ? You’re pretty old, get SS and Medicare . What would you have to spend it on ? Come on now, tell the truth .

  129. Alan,
    Being rich in todays environment is more of a sickness, than being a successful person.

    Our recent experience with those that had become CEO’s on Wall Street, those unscrupulous profit takers, that are the manipulators of our economy.
    It is they that had brought our nation into a economic down turn that went beyond recession and close to a full fledged depression.

    Their insane GREED for personal profit, is a sickness that it seems, won’t go away.

    They are continuing to behave in the same irresponsible manner that had been the cause of our economic crises during the Bush years.

    The Rich and successful have no remorse about bringing our nation to the brink of a full fledged depression.
    They are only interested in making for themselves, increasingly larger and larger personal profit, and to “HELL TO THOSE THAT GET IN THEIR WAY!”

    The selfishness of the successful rich in our country appears to inspire you and your kind to emulate them.

    Because of your ambition to become successful, just like them, you and those like you, may become a rich, successful and powerful person, but I doubt that you will become a decent and good person.

    All of the great “CHURCHES in the world through out the ages, had proclaimed in their sacred writings, that the “POOR SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH!” That a “Rich Man has as much chance to get to heaven as a camel can get through the eye of a needle!”

    Lets face it, Alan, You are a shallow narrow minded selfish person, that measures the worth of a person by how much money he has made in his or her lifetime.

    Your ambition to become rich, has blinded you to what is truly valuable in life. And that is why you are a self serving republican, that has willfully sold out your humanity so that you can gain your thirty pieces of silver by betraying every decent impulse that perhaps you at one time had!

    You are very stupid or very naive to be holding on to that what you call the “American Dream!”

    That That “dream” has turned into a nightmare for those that had at one time in our distant past was sure that it was possible for a person to become rich and remain a decent person.

    Today most people cannot become independently rich, you only can become rich with strings attached. The strings that you are depended on to remain rich will shape you and cause you to move in the direction away from being human, and toward the direction of being a blood sucking money grubbing monster.

    A monster that will suck out your humanity and your soul.

    You will become if you are not already, a “Right Wing Extremist!”

  130. Mr. Walters,

    What is the point in answering you ? You are afraid to debate me . Like Obama, all you do is make speeches .

  131. Alan,
    It is not your fault that you cannot distinguish words that are arranged in a way that is a “response” to what you have stated as your inner most “Right Wing” belief system.

    I am sure that objective viewers of our conversation will be able to understand the points that I had made in my discourse with you and your feeble attempt to respond.

    Your repeated response that I am making speeches that are not relevant to some kind of debate we are supposed to be having, is something that exists only in your feeble non perceptive way of thinking.

    What you dismiss as “SPEECHES” are debate points that are made, that you have not been able to respond to, so you dismiss the points that I have made as “Obama like speeches!”

    You are not to blame for your lack of understanding of “debating points.”

    It is my opinion that there are many of those that hold similar views as do you, that have not as yet evolved to the point where you’re thinking has progressed from “simple instinctive thinking” to a more “complex intellectual thinking!”

    It is probably “Genetic,” so perhaps in a few generations your kind will mature!

  132. Mr. Walters,

    You are an atheist, right ? When you die, that’s it, right ? Your dialectical materialism is all mumbo jumbo to me . It is a form of Marxism, right ? It is therefore atheism, right ? That was the only thing that I could get from the numerous researches I read .

    Now as an atheist, your universe is destroyed once you die . You are not called upon by any deity to care about your fellow human beings, especially post mortem . So why are you arguing about what will most likely happen when you are gone ? Why do you care ? Unless it is all about your ego .

    Now as for me, I care because I am religious and see nothing but destructive results coming from your form of Marxism . It has always been the history of Marxism . You cannot give me any examples of where Marxism has worked .

  133. Alan Scott,

    You have absolutely no understanding of what you assume that you are informed about.

    Your so called research on the subjects that you assume you are acquainted with are so far into pure fiction that I doubt that you will ever find your way back to reality.

    You fear and hate all things that you unfortunately do not have the capacity to understand.

    What you have consistently done in our so called debate, is to dismiss all scientifically understood facts as being not a fact, because it does not agree with your prejudices and prejudgement’s, on what is the nature of the struggle, between the “Right Wing and Left Wing elements.”

    It is these elements that constantly have been in opposition to each other from the beginning of time to the present day.

    Your lack of understanding of this historical process, is probably central to your blind ignorance of current events.

    It is because of this lack of understanding that you have become a prime victim of superstitious thinking and capitalist propaganda.

    It is because of this ignorance that you will always find it difficult to understand the true nature of the struggle between “Capitalism and Socialism.”

    This is the reason that you cannot conceive the notion of the inevitability of “Socialism” replacing “Capitalism” and “Communism” replacing “Socialism.”

    In my previous posts, I have explained how the system of capitalism grew to it’s various stages of development and how at the beginning it had a particular shape and through the passage of time it predictably changed its shape.

    What at the beginning was a positive force in the world would eventually become a negative force in the world.

    It would be replaced by a diametric opposite of Capitalism and that opposite would predictably be Socialism, and after Socialism there will predictably be Communism.

    This prediction of natural social change is based on the “scientific method” and is a dialectical process of reasoning that has never been refuted as being not scientific.

    Your insistence on examples of where Marxism has worked can only be understood from a historical perspective. The only way that “Societies” change, and the only way that “Matter” in motion changes, is a process that is understood as “Dialectical.”

    This is the way it is now possible to understand what existed in the past, what is the truth about the present, and what predictably will be the future.

    Revolutionary social change will only occur when all of the conditions are present that will demand that a qualitative revolutionary change take place.

    If the conditions for revolutionary social change are not present, the premature birth of social change will fail because of not enough life support.

    It takes Nine Months to give birth to a healthy baby. Premature babies are at risk of not surviving because of not enough life support.

    It does not mean that the mother cannot give birth to a healthy baby.

    Because Communism in the former Soviet Union failed because of the primitive agrarian superstitious backward elements that were an important part of the “Old Soviet Union” and because Capitalism was and is so strong, does not mean that in the future when the conditions are favorable for a revolutionary social change, that a change will not take place.

    It took millions of years for the human brain to evolve to the level of development that exists at the present time.

    The human brain is the highest developed form of “matter in motion,” That being so, my religion is to see that those that are aware of this fact of life, is not destroyed by those that do not know how to appreciate this remarkable development of “matter in motion.”

  134. Mr. Walters,

    I admit to not having your understanding of your philosophy, so I asked you direct questions, in order for you to make clear your position . You continually ignore, evade, and refuse to answer very basic questions . My life experience which is quite long, though not as long as yours’, has taught me that people who will not answer simple and direct questions are either dishonest, uninformed about their own ideas, or mentally impaired .

    So which of the three are you ?

  135. Alan Scott,

    The reason I decided to post on a “Right Wing” site, was that I felt that I could have an intelligent discussion about the differences that exist between progressives and conservatives.

    I quickly found out that much of the confusion by “Right Wingers” were based on the ignorance of the political Right on what the truth is about the spectrum of the “Political Left.”

    The ignorance of conservatives at this site about spectrum politics, was to me, eye opening.

    The ignorance displayed by people at Tea Party Gatherings and at this site, on where “Obama” stood inside the political spectrum of the “political Left,” was mind boggling!

    The characterization of the politics of Obama as being “Marxist” and “Socialist,” was so far from the truth that I felt that it would be necessary to explain in an objective way of what actually was the world view of Communists and Marxists.

    My explanation in my many posts were a detailed explanation of the world view of Marxists and Communists!

    Your response to my detailed explanation as to the world view of those on the extreme left of the political spectrum was that of confusion and an inability to understand what I was writing about.

    All of the basic questions that you asked I had answered many times. I ignored questions that were impossible to respond to like questions about evidence of success of a system that is predicted to become a reality in the near or distant future.

    I have presented at this site information that should have enlightened you!

    You don’t have to agree with what I have written here, but I am disappointed that you were not able to raise your consciousness.

  136. To get back to the beginning statement of the board .

    ” The first step would be to condition the populace to believe that prosperity is bad, that anybody who makes more than a modest income must be evil (or at least dishonest), ”

    Listening to Dave Ramsey the other night, it hit me . One of the big sins we are all guilty of is Envy. We all have to fight it . Thou shall not covet what is thy neighbor’s .

    Barak Obama and the Democrats deliberately promote the sin of envy . Call it class envy or class warfare, it is vice promoted for power .

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